Draco's culpability (Was: My doubts about Snape being Evil)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 139476

 
> Betsy Hp:
> And yet, Harry was able to watch people laugh.  Since it was at a 
> distance and there were people screaming, etc., I doubt he *heard* 
> them laughing.  So they must have been un-masked in order to take 
> part in the fun.  Yes, it was foolhardy, but that's pack behavior 
> for you.  It happens in RL all the time.  Folks go mad in front of 
> police and cameras and what all because they've let go of reason 
and 
> joined with the crowd. 
> <snip> 

a_svirn:
If they were too distant to be heard, they must have been too 
distant to be seen. If you ever attended a public meeting, or were 
unlucky enough to end up somewhere in back rows in a theatre you 
must have noticed that while it is easy to hear what's going on 
onstage, facial expressions are difficult to read. 

Besides, now, after HBP we know for sure, that cursing Muggles is a 
serious offence (Morfin Gaunt case). Which means that if you were 
right and the lynch-mob was actually unmasked there would have been 
a flurry of arrests in the aftermath. Especially, since we know that 
the MoM and more particularly Fudge would have sized any opportunity 
to prove to the general public that the Ministry doing their job. 


> Betsy Hp:
> No.  Draco wasn't given the choice.  If Voldemort had given him 
one 
> I think he would have chosen to join, but Draco wasn't given a 
> chance to choose.  Not by Voldemort.

a_svirn:
I didn't say that Draco "was given the choice". I said that as far 
as he was concerned his choice was made. Wherein do you see the 
contradiction? Draco's choice was made, but Voldemorte's was not. 
(Probably. There is no way you or me can confirm or deny it).
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> We *know* Voldemort doesn't see Draco as worthy.  We're told this 
in 
> Spinner's End.  Draco is being used to punish his father, maybe 
> shake Dumbledore up a litte.  But he has not been chosen as 
> a "worthy servant".  He's been chosen as a tool.  And he has no 
say 
> in the matter.

a_svirn:
I didn't say that he was chosen (or rather I didn't say that he 
wasn't chosen) a "worthy servant". How one can be chosen a "worthy 
servant"? What I said was that – according to you – he might not 
have been deemed worthy to be a servant. 

> Betsy Hp:
> Even if Draco *does* have the mark he still didn't *choose*.  He 
is 
> not a volunteer.  I doubt he's got the mark, because Voldemort 
> expected him to die and I suspect the mark is something to be 
> honored.  That was my argument.  But it certainly doesn't make 
Draco 
> lack of choice moot, IMO.

a_svirn:

Now you have me totally baffled. First you say that "Draco 
was "excited to be chosen" and "would have gladly been marked", but 
it doesn't matter, because Voldemorte wasn't interested and didn't 
mark him. Now you say that even had LV been interested it wouldn't 
have mattered because Draco didn't volunteer. Simultaneously you are 
agreeing with me that it is actually impossible to "volunteer" to 
join a secret society. So what *would* make Draco a DE, if his 
eagerness and the Mark itself don't really matter? 


> Betsy Hp:
> That *was* the inner circle.  Voldemort's chosen elite. It's not a 
> literal circle.  Usually.  And Draco obviously becomes reluctant.  
> Hence the "we'll kill you and your family too" stuff.

a_svirn:

There was one very literal circle in the Graveyard. I wouldn't call 
a bunch of groveling servants "elite", though. Besides "elite" 
implies that DE are crème de la crème of Voldemorte's servants, so 
to speak, while there are others who are just plain foot soldiers. 
There seem to be no "canon" to support such a view, though. 

As for Draco how it is "obvious" that he was reluctant? He did make 
two attempts at Dumbledore life. He wasn't reluctant, he was 
*obviously* inefficient. Far more serious offence from LV's point of 
view. 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> No, Draco was not given a choice.  Draco was excited (or gave the 
> appearance of being, I don't want to assume too much) to be 
chosen, 
> but the very nature of being chosen precludes Draco making the 
> choice.  <snip>

a_svirn:
No, it does not. It only means that Voldemorte has made his choice 
and now it's Draco's turn. A bit like marriage proposal, really. One 
may agree or decline, but once the vows are taken it's "until the 
death do us part". 

>> Betsy Hp:
> Draco was never given a chance to choose.  Never.  HBP makes it 
> absolutely clear that Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius and so he 
> chose to send Lucius's son to his death.  Either at Dumbledore's 
> hands (bonus for Voldemort) or at Voldemort's hands Draco was 
chosen 
> to die. <snip> 

a_svirn:
There is absolutely no reason to suppose that LV would kill Draco if 
he succeeded. And I don't see how "LV wanted to punish Lucius 
through Draco" and "Draco wasn't given a choice" follow one another. 
Something is missing here.