Grindelwald taught Tom about making Horcruxes

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 139631

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" <aussie_lol at y...> wrote:
> Tom Riddle made the diary Horcrux in about 1942 or 1943 ... is that 
> correct? So where did that 16 year old learn how to make Horcruxes? 
> He didn't learn that in Hogwarts.
> 
> I propose Grindelwald taught Tom about Horcruxes. If that is so, 
> wouldn't Grindelwald also have made a Horcrux or two? He could teach 
> what he knew.
> 
> Now, JKR has said Grindelwald was defeated, but in her latest 
> interview, there was a lot of unanswered questions about that Dark 
> Wizard. 
> 
> I have some more ideas about him ... without making this TOO long,  
> let the discussion begin and see if we have similar theories.
> -aussie-


Valky:
I have done some thinking about Grindelwald and Tom, myself, but I
come to a different conclusion. 

The first question in my mind is are there any connections between
Grindelwald and Tom Riddle. Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore
within a couple of years of Tom finishing his schooling. This would
place Grindelwald in charge of chaos and darkness in the WW while Tom
was at school, and it places Tom's curiosity about Horcruxes within
the few years before Grindelwalds defeat. 

IMO, there are two very possible sources from which Tom might have
come across Horcruxes. The first is the Chamber of Secrets, and the
second is Grindelwald. Clearly neither of these sources explained
anything about Horcruxes as Tom bothered to ask Slughorn for information. 

OTOH this source or both sources gave Tom enough information to know
that he could divide himself into pieces to achieve immortality. I
believe we know this because in Sluggy's memory Tom has already
decided to ask about making himself into seven, and the info he gets
from Sluggy that appears to be news to Tom are the details of placing
pieces of soul in objects, and killing to break off the piece of soul. 

So going with what I deduce would be the information tht Tom had on
Horcruxes before he asked Slughorn about it:

1. The name of Horcruxes
2. That creating them is a means of pursuing immortality
3. That it involves dividing the wizard into more than one piece.

I am leaning toward thinking that all of this information could have
been gleaned from a single sentence. ie That Wizard has a Horcrux,
another piece of himself hidden somewhere, so he is immortal.

This could very easily have been a rumour about Grindelwald, or it
could even as easily have been something rumoured about Salzar
Slytherin, or the sentence could be divided among the two wizards
leaving Tom with enough information to put the pieces together. 

I don't know that we have quite enough backstory - or at least not
backstory that I have investigated thoroughly enough - to know which
of these three it was. But in any case I think Grindelwald is a
terrific guess and a good place to start looking for the predecessor
of Horcruxed!Voldemort. 

I think that Grindelwald is a good place to start because it brings
Dumbledore into the equation. The only one Tom ever feared. By
commutating the timeframe which can place Toms fear of DD in the arena
of his defeat of Grindelwald, I think we can postulate that we are
looking at the same operator. I mean that the reason Tom fears DD is
because he defeated Grindelwald. Toms is most afraid of dying, above
all things, and with all his experiments he knows that to kill him one
must destroy his Horcruxes. Associatively, therefore, Tom would fear
very much someone who can destroy Horcruxes (the operator) because
destruction of Horcruxes and death are the same thing to Voldemort. 

To take the algebraic language out of all I have just said (which I
used mostly for my own benefit but I will leave in for the mathheads
among us). Toms fear of Dumbledore goes back to his childhood, were he
saw, among other things, Dumbledore defeating Grindelwald. 

Tom saw Dumbledore manage a lot of things and, of them, defeating the
Dark Wizard was not the least, so if we shuffle it to the front of the
list of things Dumbledore did that scared Tom, where it could equally
belong, it looks the same as Voldemort being afraid that Dumbledore
can destroy an immortal Wizard. 

Leaving us with only one thing left to find - What made Grindelwald
immortal. We only have canon on one method of pursuing immortality so
let's call it that, Horcruxes. 

Hence Dumbledore's prescence in the mix makes it very likely that
Grindelwald had a Horcrux. And we establish grounds for a further step
into speculating how Grindelwald was involved, if at all, in Toms plans.

Personally I think it is likely that Tom did seek out Grindelwald to
find the secret of creating a Horcrux. But I do doubt that he actually
learned first hand from Grindelwald how it was done. I think he may
have learned more about the mechanics of it in the Chamber of Secrets,
from Salazar. And possibly experimented with it before he even knew
what it was, producing the Diary.

Now I have rambled at length bout my thoughts, Aussie, I'd like to
hear yours. :D

Valky