Sirius' declaration of loyalty in the Shrieking Shack

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 139661

Magda:
> > What I am objecting to is the over-the-topness of a declaration
> > like "you should have died for us like we would have died for 
> > you".  If you're going to make that kind of statement about 
> > anyone, you'd better have thought long and hard about that 
> > person, seriously considered their weak points, their flaws, 
> > their blind spots, everything about that person that might cause 
> > them to let you down in the worst possible way at the worst 
> > possible time.  Not just because you slept in the same dorm for 
> > seven years, gave each other dumb nicknames and did pranks 
> > together.  

SSSusan:
But I think the point is, for someone like Sirius (and quite 
possibly James & Remus, too), he wouldn't HAVE to think about it 
long & hard for him to MEAN it.  I'm sure that strikes you as 
irresponsible, but it doesn't negate the strength of the feeling 
inside Sirius.  If he didn't think long & hard about it, it doesn't 
mean he still wouldn't have acted upon it.  


Phoenixgod wrote: 
> Brotherhood. Fraternity. Friendship. These are powerful concepts 
> that have far more powerful hold over the male heart than you give 
> credit for. I think you diminish the Marauders when you reduce 
> them to just living together, giving each other stupid nicknames, 
> and doing pranks. 
<snip>
> To say that Sirius, James, Remus, and Peter couldn't have 
> formed a bond that meant so much in seven years is just plain 
> wrong. And it could have been further honed during the war after 
> they graduated.

SSSusan:
I totally agree.  Because of my father's teaching, I've spent my 
life around -- & have now worked myself for ten years -- at one of 
the couple of remaining all-male colleges in the U.S.  Fraternities 
are HUGE here, and the sense of loyalty to one another is extremely 
strong.  In addition to the living unit fraternities, there is 
a "pep club" kind of fraternity, for which one has to do all sorts 
of silly, oddball rituals, like painting one leg green and dropping 
to the ground & kicking your legs in the air wherever a current 
member shouts "Air raid!"  Silly, but by the time it's over, there's 
a bond there.  

I would maintain that, with the four Marauders, it could well have 
been something similar, only *stronger.*  Yes, we see *a* scene 
where Sirius ridicules Peter, but we also have evidence that they 
did a LOT together.  It took them a very long time to become 
animagi, and Peter the longest.  Yet they DID it together -- they 
spent the time, they helped him learn.  Teenaged boys, if they 
didn't really want someone around, would've told him to scram 
waaaaay before what it took to get Peter able to turn into 
Scabbers.  They also created the map, presumably *together.*  They 
roamed about the grounds & Hogsmeade every month when Remus 
transformed.

I'll grant that the level of respect for Peter may have been less 
than it was among the other three, but if they didn't have ANY 
respect or *liking* for him, they'd have told him to bugger off.  


Phoenixgod: 
> Furthermore, remember what Sirius' form was. A dog. a greater 
> example of living and breathing loyalty you will never see. Dogs 
> don't judge. They don't weigh outcomes. They just give their 
> loyalty and love without a second thought. Sirius was the same 
> way. The other marauders were his family. Unhesitatingly giving 
> his life for them was totally in character and deeply moving in my 
> opinion.

SSSusan:
Absolutely.  Couldn't agree more.  If there is anything I believe 
about Sirius, it's his sincerity when he said he'd have died for 
*any* of the Marauders.  Is that stupid?  Maybe in many people's 
opinions, but not in Sirius'.  


Magda:
> > One of the biggest myths of the series is the so-
> > called "friendship" between the four Marauders.  

Phoenixgod: 
> I would argue the exact opposite. While they weren't equals, I 
> think there is enough evidence of a strong friendship to counter 
> the one scene we see in the pensieve.

SSSusan:
I agree with Phoenixgod again.  "Myth" is an awfully strong word to 
use.  Think of the time spent together, the secrets shared, what 
they did together and for one another while at Hogwarts.  And then 
joining the Order together afterwards.  I just don't see how this 
makes it a myth.  Yes, we saw Sirius making fun of Peter in the 
pensieve scene.  I've got three older brothers and taught high 
schoolers for 5 years.  Teenage boys can be pretty blunt with one 
another.  But saying something about a friend's weaknesses or 
faults, even in an insulting way, doesn't negate the friendship.  
It's just... well, bluntness.


Phoenixgod:
> Contrast that with Pettigrew and James. Pettigrew was brought in 
> on the inner circle. They helped him become an animagus, his voice 
> is on the marauders map, he runs in the woods with Remus alongside 
> them. That is far too much work just to keep a person around to 
> stroke the old ego. Men and especially teenage boys are far too 
> self centered to devote that much attention to someone they don't 
> like all that much.

SSSusan:
Yep.  If this discussion were about Harry & Ron with Seamus or Dean, 
I could see the hesitancy in calling the relationship deep, true 
friendship of the sort where one would offer to die for the others. 
(Well, except that Harry might die for almost anybody! <g>)  But 
look at the time spent together and the activities in the 
situation.  Harry and Ron are together all the time, have had 
incredible (and incredibly dangerous) adventures together.  Does 
anyone doubt they'd pledge to die for one another?  But Dean & 
Seamus, while dormmates and friends, aren't as close to Harry & 
Ron.  They haven't gone into the Forbidden Forest together or flown 
thestrals off to the MoM to fight DEs or gone through a dangerous 
obstacle course to save the Sorcerer's Stone.

It's the intensity of the experiences, it's the time spent together 
and the nature of the activities in that time, which make the 
friendship so deep as to lead to someone saying "I'd die for any of 
you."  I maintain that the kinds of things the Marauders did 
together -- developing the map, learning to become animagi, 
accompanying Remus, keeping Remus' secret -- were similar to what 
Harry & Ron (& Hermione) have done.  And in both situations, add to 
it that it was a time of struggle against Voldemort, and the stakes 
are higher than just your average "living with a group of guys in 
the dorm" situation.  


Magda: 
> > Yes, I am.  Peter had no sincere feelings of friendship for any 
> > of them.  He wanted to tag along with the Big Men on Campus and 
> > he was prepared to be humiliated as the price for this 
> > privilege.  

Phoenixgod:
> I don't know. I think there is some evidence that Peter had been 
> tortured and broken by Voldemort. It will be interesting to see 
> what happens in book seven.

SSSusan:
It's possible, Magda, but I don't see how you can state this as 
fact.  "Peter had no sincere feelings of friendship....  He wanted 
to tag along...."  You can tell all of this for certain?  I can't.

Like Phoenixgod, I think it's equally possible (well, no, that's not 
true -- I think it's MORE possible) that the feelings of friendship 
were genuine, but that Voldemort exploited Peter's weaknesses at 
some point.  

I keep coming back to DD's statement (paraphrased) that Harry may 
very well be glad someday to have someone who owes him a life debt.  
He was speaking, of course, of Peter.  Why would JKR have included 
that remark if it weren't going to play out at some point?  I think 
Peter, while certainly having betrayed his friends and shown real 
weakness, might yet be a good candidate for a character to be 
redeemed, based upon that remark by DD.  

We shall see.

Siriusly Snapey Susan