Sirius' declaration of loyalty in the Shrieking Shack

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 139704

> >>Magda:
> > What I am objecting to is the over-the-topness of a declaration
> > like "you should have died for us like we would have died for 
> > you".
> > <snip>

> >>SSSusan:
> But I think the point is, for someone like Sirius (and quite 
> possibly James & Remus, too), he wouldn't HAVE to think about it 
> long & hard for him to MEAN it.  
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I do believe that Sirius meant his knightly statement *when he made 
it*.  Just as Sirius believed it when he said "If you want to know 
what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, 
not his equals." (GoF scholastic hardback p.525)  And then he turned 
around and treated his inferior, Kreacher, like so much crap.  So, 
like any good actor (and I think the Blacks are excellent actors) 
Sirius believes his line while he's delivering it.  The *depth* of 
commitment, however, is something to be questioned, I think.

And really, his statement *is* an exaggeration, IMO.  Sirius and 
James weren't willing to die for Peter.  They put him into the 
incredibly dangerous position of Secret Keeper, where Peter would be 
risking *his* life for James.  I think Sirius was willing to die to 
keep Peter's secret (that he was the Secret Keeper) safe, but in the 
end it was in service to James.  And I think Magda is correct: the 
real friendship was that of James and Sirius.

 
> >>Phoenixgod wrote: 
> Brotherhood. Fraternity. Friendship. These are powerful concepts 
> that have far more powerful hold over the male heart than you give 
> credit for. 
> <snip>
> To say that Sirius, James, Remus, and Peter couldn't have 
> formed a bond that meant so much in seven years is just plain 
> wrong. And it could have been further honed during the war after 
> they graduated.

Betsy Hp:
Except we know that their bond wasn't that tight, in the end.  The 
Marauders fractured before Peter became the Secret Keeper.  Sirius 
(and probably James) suspected Lupin was a traitor.  Lupin (on his 
own I imagine) worried that Sirius was the traitor.  Everyone 
overlooked Peter, but they were certainly pointing fingers at each 
other.

I'm not overlooking the tightness of the male bond, but I think the 
true bond was the one between James and Sirius.  The Marauders formed 
on the basis of their charisma, but the inner circle, the heart of 
that merry band, IMO, was the friendship of James and Sirius.
> 
> SSSusan:
> <snip of male bonding example>
> I would maintain that, with the four Marauders, it could well have 
> been something similar, only *stronger.*  Yes, we see *a* scene 
> where Sirius ridicules Peter, but we also have evidence that they 
> did a LOT together.
> <snip of Marauder activities>
> I'll grant that the level of respect for Peter may have been less 
> than it was among the other three, but if they didn't have ANY 
> respect or *liking* for him, they'd have told him to bugger off.

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm, see I doubt the "stonger".  Because their bond failed miserably 
in the end The four boys *did* do everything together, but I think a 
lot of that had to do with James's and Sirius's need for an audience, 
a lookout, another pair of hands.  And they certainly had tight 
control of Remus and Peter.  Peter seemed to have a pretty strong 
crush on James, and Remus was so desperate for friends he compromised 
his conscience for them.

Yes, much of this is based on the one scene JKR gives us, but it's a 
fair judgment to make, IMO.  We're not anthropologists stumbling upon 
the Marauders and needing furthur proof that this is a typical day.  
JKR deliberately gives us this scene to give us an idea of what their 
characters were like.

Of course, there's probably more to that scene and more to their 
characters.  But I think that we're given a solid foundation to build 
on.  Especially since all secondary sources tend to agree with what 
we were shown.  The main friends were James and Sirius, charismatic 
and puckish.  Peter was a hanger-on, happy just to watch James in 
action.  And Remus faded into the background.

> >>Saraquel:
> At the time Sirius is talking about a state of war existed. Your   
> friends were more than just those whom you had a personal bond     
> with, your friends were anyone who was on your side.
> <snip>
> He suspected that Lupin was the spy, but he did not know for sure.
> I think that his need to believe that everyone around him was true
> would have battled with the suspicion of treachery. Sirius is the
> sort of person who has so much faith in himself and placed so much
> importance on the relationship he had with the other Marauders, that
> he would find it very difficult to suspect that they were the spies.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And yet, Sirius had no problem suspecting Lupin.  So, again, the 
depth of the Marauder bond is brought into question, IMO.  Though, to 
be fair to the Marauder's, everyone was suspecting everyone.  That 
was Voldemort's special little gift.

I think Sirius might have been so shocked at Peter's betrayal because 
Peter seemed to love James just as Sirius did.  I think Sirius didn't 
realize that Peter's love for James was different than his, not so 
stable, more easily twisted.  Hero worship doesn't go as far as true 
friendship, and I think James and Sirius learned that the hard way, 
unfortunately.

Betsy Hp