either must die at the hand of the other, Contradiction or Clue?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 139707

Saraquel:
My take on the horcrux!soul parts, is that they are not truly alive
and therefore, destroying them is not technically killing them. They
don't die, they are destroyed. 

Valky:
I like this but it doesn't quite ring true. I am finding it difficult
to determine in my own mind that the Horcrux parts are any less alive
than Voldemorts last original piece of soul. I don't think that any of
Voldemort is truly alive, and I am glad that JKR cleared that up in
HBP actually, because the prophecy was quite unfathomable before that,
it contradicted canon that Harry and Voldemort were alive by saying
that they weren't. Now we at least know that theres a possibility
neither of them are truly alive, thanks to all Voldies souls splitting
and dumping experiments. Back to the point, however, because not many
agree with Harry not truly being alive as I do, the concept that parts
of Voldies soul could be destroyed in a detached sense as opposed to
their destruction being a part of his actual death just doesn't quite
clear it up for me. I think it has some relevance to the issue, but I
am not quite able to believe that its all there is. I do appreciate
your input though Saraquel. And I hope I haven't put you off trying to
convince me or push for a comprimise that leads to greater things :D

Saraquel:
If the horcrux!soul parts are alive,
then DD and Harry have already committed murder (yes, I am aware of
the ongoing discussions about what constitutes murder and what is
manslaughter, but for this post, I'm going to stick with – killing
is murder.)

Valky:
I think this is actually a really pertinient issue Saraquel.
Dumbledore obviously does not believe that Harry committed a murder
with that Basilisk tooth, but if he destroyed a mans soul, then what
is the difference? I mean apart from the fact that he was completely
justified in taking back Ginny's life, which Tom unrighteously tried
to steal. Or maybe that is the point.. There was something else you
said, which interests me.

Saraquel:
Which gets me back to the topic that I keep nibbling away at without
success – what is the
relevance of bodies 
. but I digress marginally.

Valky:
I don't mind the digression one bit! I am fascinated and I never
thought of this before. What has struck you about it so far? I
definitely agree that in Potterverse there is a unclear but
plot-relative distinction between body and soul. We have bodies
without souls (Crouch Jr) and souls without bodies (Voldemort). We
have a whole body and soul passing through the veil in one piece
(Sirius) and we have shadows of people staying behind that are neither
body nor soul (Ghosts). 

I think defining body and soul in the Potterverse is completely
relevant, can you tell? <g>

According to the quote that Saraquel graciously found for us a soul
without a body is like this:
p567
"I remember only forcing myself, sleeplessly, endlessly, second by
second, to exist 
 I settled in a faraway place, in a forest, and I
waited 
 surely, one of my faithful Death Eaters would try and find
me 
 one of them would come and perform the magic I could not, to
restore me to a body"

This is the existence of what is apparently a scrap of Voldemorts
soul, bare and unprotected from the world without a body. While just
his soul he has the faintest grip on life he speaks of it as though it
was pure misery to be alive in this barest sense of the word. Does
Voldemorts experiences as vapour mort define the existence of a soul
without a body? If so I wonder if this is the life that he has
forsaken the pieces of his soul to. Are all of Voldemorts Horcruxes
suffering and destitute in their exiles like Vapour!Mort was, are they
in equal desperation to be returned to life, to be real again? Are all
these little pieces of Voldemort forcing themselves to sleeplessly
endlessly second by second, exist? 

Taking an example of the piece of Voldemorts soul manifesting itself
through Ginny Weasley. The Diary Horcrux drains Ginny's life away to
create its soul piece a new body. First it took over her body, the HSP
was poured into her and once it had control of her body it moved on
from there, draining her ?life essence? to inhabit a body of magical
creation. How did he do this? It seems like the soul fragment
converted the essence of Ginny's life into a body for itself, it
didn't take her material body, literally, so I think that the body of
Young Tom must have been created by the soul piece, in some way. 
It also seems to be some inverse parrallel to a Dementor - While the
Dementor drains the soul from the life, Tom was rather draining life
for his soul. After Ginny had thrown him away, I appeal that he did
seem to become rather desperate to make sure it stuck this time. One
thing is for sure, although I seem to have gotten nowhere much else,
the body and the soul are *meant* to stay together in life. Anything
else is just unthinkable.

Clearly cutting your soul up is an atrocity to begin with, but how
deep does that river run, what has Voldemort done to himself? And how
might releasing a bunch of desperate traumatised Vapourmorts figure in
the scheme of things?


Saraquel:
So it seems to me, that the only part of Voldemort that is truly
alive, and can therefore be killed, is the soul *and* body that is
walking around calling itself Voldemort. It can continue to exist
without any of the HSPs, but, if you try and kill it, with any of
the HSPs still in existence, they somehow anchor the original soul
part to this world and prevent it from going beyond the veil – i.e.
dying.
So dying seems to be a two part process – destruction of the body
and release of the soul to beyond the veil.

Valky:
I hate to mess this up on you Saraquel, but it doesn't fit Sirius'
profile. His Body and Soul disappeared to beyond the veil together,
there was no destruction of the body and yet he is as dead as any dead
person, right? Like you said 4.9 = 5.1 again it's not making any sense. 

I don't know that I can honestly define a line between the body and
the soul, I am beginning to think that there isn't one, bodiless souls
and souless bodies will always long for the other peice of themself.
When Voldemort creates himself a body in GOF he declares that he is
comprimising and that he would prefer that the body was immortal, but
he was desperate enough to take anything he could. 

These Horcrux thingies are becoming outright disturbing the more I
consider them.

Valky