either must die at the hand of the other, Contradiction or Clue?

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 139720

Saraquel:
I have a nasty suspicion that this thread is going to turn into one 
of those brain aching ones – why do I choose them :-)

Thanks for your response Valky.  Ok, I'm going to wade in at the end 
of your response to see if it can shed any light on the beginning 
part.  

Body and soul.  The thing that started me off thinking about bodies, 
and I haven't got very far, is the statement you mentioned, by 
Voldemort, about looking for an immortal body and this quote from 
the MN/LC interview:

>JKR: The one that I wondered whether I was going to be able to get 
>past the editors was the physical condition of Voldemort before he 
>went into the cauldron, do you remember? He was kind of fetal. I 
>felt an almost visceral distaste for what I had conjured up, **but 
>there's a reason it was in there and you *will* see that.**

So obviously it is important that Voldemort made himself some sort 
of a body, and that the importance was not just so that he could 
wield a wand in OotP, but it has an importance we are yet to 
discover as JKR uses the future tense.

Ok, back to our posts, and more thinking about bodies and souls.

>Saraquel wrote:
>So dying seems to be a two part process – destruction of the body
>and release of the soul to beyond the veil.
>
>Valky wrote:
>I hate to mess this up on you Saraquel, but it doesn't fit Sirius'
>profile. His Body and Soul disappeared to beyond the veil together,
>there was no destruction of the body and yet he is as dead as any 
>dead person, right? Like you said 4.9 = 5.1 again it's not making 
>any sense.
>
>I don't know that I can honestly define a line between the body and
>the soul, I am beginning to think that there isn't one, bodiless 
>souls and souless bodies will always long for the other piece of 
>themself. When Voldemort creates himself a body in GOF he declares 
>that he is compromising and that he would prefer that the body was 
>immortal, but he was desperate enough to take anything he could.

Saraquel now:
My two part process bit was badly phrased, but you have shed further 
light on things so I'll take it from there.  I didn't necessarily 
mean that the body needs to be disintegrated. In fact, what is in my 
head is the Christian belief that in order to reach heaven, you need 
both your original body and your soul.  Hence, at judgement day all 
the graves will crack open and bodies & souls go off to be judged.  
So having your original body is a really important deal as far as 
salvation goes.  

When Sirius dies, both soul and body go through the veil, which is 
indicative to me, that Sirius made it to heaven, so to speak.  I 
loved your expression about bodies and souls longing for each 
other.  I think it encapsulates their relationship wonderfully.  I 
think that in JKR's world, we are supposed to stick with the body we 
are given, it is integral to our being. If it pegs out, then the 
soul goes with it – we die, that is what death is. Also, if for some 
reason the soul departs, then also, the body should go with the 
soul. Together, they define who we are. Being alive as a whole human 
being is therefore having both an intact soul and an original body. 
If living and therefore dying is defined by both soul and body, then 
technically, you're not completely human and alive, and nor can you 
die if you are missing one of them. Because, I am speculating, you 
need both to go beyond the veil.

Now let's investigate what Voldemort has done around bodies and see 
if it gets us anywhere other than back where we started.

Voldemort starts off with his own handsome body.  Gradually, as he 
starts to create Horcruxes, it begins to change and to resemble a 
snake.  Now why should it do that?  Is it that some part of the 
process of making a horcrux involves snakes? Or is it that by 
splitting the soul you become less human in some way and your body 
responds to that by becoming snake like? With the implication that 
you cannot mutilate one half of yourself (soul) without mutilating 
the other half (body) as well. Why snake like in particular? (unless 
a snake was chosen as a reference to the Garden of Eden.)

How did Voldemort make himself his foetal body – GoF p569 "A spell 
or two of my own invention" and "a potion concocted from unicorn 
blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided."  Now this puzzles me. 
In PS 187ff we see a cloaked figure drinking unicorn blood.  I 
always assumed that Quirrel was forced by Voldemort to drink it on 
his behalf. But how could Vapormort have drunk the potion – maybe it 
was similar to the potion in the graveyard and he bathed in it. 

So we get a body somehow constructed from something poisonous and 
something completely pure that keeps you alive (PS p188).  However, 
the cost of drinking (using?) unicorn blood is, according to 
Firenze, a cursed life and a half life. So now we have a mutilated 
soul in a cursed body which needs constant infusions of snake venom 
to keep it alive. Pretty EEEW really. It does make you wonder about 
just how frightened Voldemort is of death!

So what is the nature of the curse which Voldemort is now under for 
drinking and using unicorn blood to keep him alive?  Is this the 
reason JKR tells us that Voldemort making this body is important? 
Too many questions and not enough answers, sigh.

If we also add into the mix at this point, Voldemort's desire for an 
immortal body. GoF p 569 "There was no hope of stealing the 
philosopher's stone any more, for I knew that Dumbledore would have 
sent to it that it was destroyed. But I was willing to embrace 
mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower 
 
I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength."

There is an interesting moral question going on here.  Dumbledore 
was Flamel's friend and worked with him on the PS and presumably the 
Elixir of Life.  The latter confers immortality to the body, but 
there is no condemnation of that.  It seems that bodily immortality 
gained by use of the Elixir is perfectly acceptable.  Is this 
because you are still vulnerable to death? i.e. someone could come 
along and kill you, or you could have a serious accident, and you 
would die like all the rest.  If the body was no longer capable of 
physical functioning because of injury, the soul would have to leave 
and you would therefore die?  (I also wonder if the elixir of life 
contained Dragon's Blood? But there is no cannon at all to support 
speculation down that path.) 

Then Voldemort makes a body using "an old piece of dark magic" – is 
this magic from the same era as the magic that protects Harry? Does 
that matter? He uses ingredients from other bodies to do it.  
Interestingly, it comes up with a replica of Voldemort's old body, 
except that this new body now has the power to touch Harry.  Again 
we have this mixture of poison and purity creating the body.  The 
flesh that is used comes from a murderer and a traitor, and the 
blood comes from Harry, which contains traces of Lily's sacrifice of 
pure love.

I think I'm going to give this up as a bad job now.  Yes there was a 
reason why I haven't posted about it before :–) I just can't seem to 
get any directions out of it, only endless questions and repetition 
of what we already know. Although I do feel that the subject is very 
relevant, I'm just not sure how it fits.

Take it away anyone, that is, if you haven't fallen asleep already.
Saraquel