either must die at the hand of the other, Contradiction or Clue?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 139735

> Valky:
> > I question, how can Voldemort die at the hands
> > of two people? It contradicts the prophecy. 
> 
> Geoff: 
 
> With reference to your comment above, the famous line in the 
> prophecy goes "...and either must die at the hand of the other...", 
> a line which has probably used up more bandwidth than any other line 
> in the Harry Potter books.
> 
> To me, the crucial word is "die". If I interpret all the information 
> about Horcruxes correctly, Voldemort will not pop his clogs until 
> the last Horcrux is destroyed. Surely therefore, the prophecy is not 
> concerned with who destroys the pieces up to the penultimate one; it 
> is the person who lines up to deal with the last fragment who is the 
> crucial opponent.

Valky:
I agree it is entirely possible and likely even that this is just the
Occams razor for surgically removing my current headache, Geoff. :D 
However, and you knew I'd say that yes?, when only the prophecy was to
be had for the discussion this notable ambiguity was dedicated, as you
said, a lot of bandwidth. And IMO not undeservedly. 

Now, its only my opinion, but the reason I thankyou Geoff but say no
thankyou I'll keep my headache is that the existence of Horcruxes in
the story countenance ambiguity in this carefully worded sentence, I
can choose to ignore it sure, but I am a puzzler and a theorist by
inbuilt nature, so I won't ;D. So long as Voldemort has *eithers* in
canon, ahh its just too good to let go of...

When saying that Voldemort *dies* at the hand of the other, I keep
coming back to thinking that although destroying Horcruxes preceeds
his actual death, they are yet a part of it and I just wonder how much
a part they are. Frankly, I'll be entirely impressed if the final book
neatly knots together each and every Horcrux with this line of the
prophecy, I quite hope that it is exactly how the story is planned. If
it's not, then I'll live ;D and in the meantime I will cheerfully
confound myself into a bow with tassels trying to figure out a way it
can be done. :D



> Geoff:
> As an aside, I often wonder whether we are assuming that Jo Rowling,  
> as an individual person, been able to work on some of the minutiae 
> of the plot and allocate as much time to it as the august body of 
> contributors here on HPFGU seem able to do.
> 

Valky:
You know, I actually entirely agree with that statement Geoff. I
certainly don't doubt that we dissect the elephant in places that Jo
herself simply wouldn't have bothered with. OTOH I tend to be somewhat
dependant on the philosophy of a thorough search, sure it's only
hidden in one place, but that place is always the last place you look.

And although, I don't think that JKR plotted with an electron
microscope, I do suspect her of muggle baiting us with the occasional
vanishing set of keys. :P 

Thanks for your comments Geoff, Always a pleasure. :D


> Saraquel:
> >So obviously it is important that Voldemort made himself some sort
> >of a body, and that the importance was not just so that he could
> >wield a wand in OotP, but it has an importance we are yet to
> >discover as JKR uses the future tense.
> 
> Valky:
> >I don't know that I can honestly define a line between the body and
> >the soul, I am beginning to think that there isn't one, bodiless
> >souls and souless bodies will always long for the other piece of
> >themself.
> *(snip)* -and again:
> >The Diary Horcrux drains Ginny's life away to create its soul piece 
> >a new body. First it took over her body, the HSP was poured into  
> >her and once it had control of her body it moved on from there, 
> >draining her ?life essence? to inhabit a body of magical creation. 
> >How did he do this? It seems like the soul fragment converted the  
> >essence of Ginny's life into a body for itself, it didn't take her 
> >material body, literally, so I think that the body of Young Tom 
> >must have been created by the soul piece, in some way.
> 
> Ceridwen:
> Hm.  If JKR is using Christian imagery, then there may be some 
> significance in the body being the Temple or dwelling place of the 
> Holy Spirit.  And like the 'black mass', Voldemort is turning 
> everything on its head.  I'm really loathe to get into the whole 
> opposites thing in relation to Christian theology here.  But, if 
> it's true that this can at some level become allegorical, then it 
> probably should be mentioned.

Valky:
Thankyou Ceridwen for venturing out of comfort zones to take a shot at
this one with us. Can I just mention that I was only recently looking
at the Myth of Ceridwen, a rather remarkable story which leads to the
prophet Taelisin which I found also rather remarkable, but unrelated
to this discussion.. sorry rather large aside there.

I am very glad you brought this third factor into the mix here, I knew
I was missing something. :D




> Ceridwen:
> Reading the exchange between the two of you, I notice that the one 
> thing missing, though briefly touched upon, is the spirit.  Ghosts 
> are spirits of the departed; the ?life essence? from Ginny could be 
> the same.  If we regard human existence as tripartite, echoing the 
> Trinity, then the spirit must be included.  Is it the glue between 
> the other two?  Or are all equally dependent upon the other?

Valky:
I first think here to tell you that I began to see Ginny's
(almost)death as being rather a normal sort of (almost) death when
reading it earlier in the light of what Saraquel and I discussed.
However now that I consider it with this concept of spirit I am
beginning to see it as rather not. While I considered it the life
essence I was considering it as a sort of glue that held the things
together, as well as a substance which could be transformed into the
body. I am changing my mind about that now and thinking that perhaps
it is more essentially the coagulating sort of concept of the three,
and that the memory of body that Tom had is more to the tune of actual
form. To wit, I am thinking Ginny was being reduced to a memory of
body and a soul, and the spirit being drained from her was more
essential in fact. Ginny was becoming something not unlike her own
Horcrux by this reasoning, and since I imagine that being a Horcrux is
not a light torture I am now thinking that Ginny really needed saving
in the worst possible way down there in the chamber. 

Although I am becoming fairly thoroughly convinced, thankyou Ceridwen
and Saraquel, that JKR envisioned in the simplest sense a three part
concept of life, a trinity I suppose, I am getting nowhere
particularly close to figuring out how the soul piece in the chamber
was vanquished as completely as it appears to have been by going down
this road, so I'll leave it there. :D



> Ceridwen:
> When Voldemort is in his twilit existence, is this his spirit, which 
> is anchored to earth by his use of horcruxes?  I guess I'm 
> suggesting that at GH, Voldemort's body and the portion of soul he 
> had left to him, were both destroyed, but since his spirit couldn't 
> move on because of the horcruxes, he remained 'alive' enough to  
> struggle back and regenerate himself with some sort of spirit/soul 
> magic.
> If that's the case, then he has already reclaimed one piece of soul 
> from his original stash of horcruxes in order to do this, his spirit 
> and a part of his soul generating the body that the soul longs for.

Valky:
I am not sure about that. I actually begin to think that when his body
was destroyed his spirit left him, and only the mangled form of his
last piece of soul remained. I lean towards it having been written
this way because Voldies recount of his life as Vapourmort tends to
sound like an existence without spirit, without impetus for life. It
seems to me that the spirit was the bit that was missing rather than
the soul. And I also am not sure I can concieve of him harvesting a
Horcrux for his ressurection, mostly because there is much doubt that
Dumbledore would have overlooked this. But I could be entirely wrong. 
For now I'll just walk a bit further in the direction of Soul
Vapourmort in the hope that it will and does have a proportional
relationship to the Diary piece of soul. 

The three ingredients of the resurection bath in GOF also seem to tend
toward looking like a "substitute" spirit, IMO. Bone of the Father,
Flesh of the Servant, and Blood of the Enemy. It reads somewhat, to
me, like a crude impetus for life existing, in the sense that having a
predecessor, a ?companion? and a purpose/plan provide for a spark. But
I could also be wandering lost here. So I'll stop and just go on with
the assumption.

So if we add spirit to the mix, it redirects my thinking about
Voldmeort and his Hrcruxes. In general the concept could be as I have
it above. Basically meaning that Voldemort no longer has a natural
spirit, and didn't have from the moment his curse backfired in Godrics
Hollow, this could be his cursed Half-life, resulting from, and in a
sense preceeding his drinking of Unicorn blood. Or it could also be
that he retained his spirit after his "death" at GH, and now still has
a natural spirit. But it could still be weakened thanks to his
slaughter of the innocent creatures in the Forbidden Forest. 

What we can say for sure, I suppose, is that he is not dividing up his
spirit equally between Horcruxes, so if it exists then it is inside
the body that walks around calling itself Voldemort. I could get used
to that, and let it convince me that Voldemort is therefore the only
one that can truly die. But before I do.... :D



> Ceridwen:
> for each piece to 
> reinhabit a body at some point, most likely through possession at 
> first, then finally, as in CoS, robbing another body of its spirit.  
> Which would then give us seven Voldemorts running around in 
> reconstituted bodies formed from robbed!spirit and Voldy!soul.  So, 
> to prevent that, the soul pieces would have to (stealthily?) return 
> to the original piece of soul, or join together somewhere, somehow, 
> and the newly-created body, the spirit being the magnet, is the 
> perfect place.

Valky:
Yes I kind of see it as they need some kind of rendevous point, or
common thread between them before they are significantly *human
enough* to die. However I find drawing together such a thread of these
Horcruxes quite difficult. My favourite theory so far is actually that
Harry is the rendevous point and connecting line and that he is
technically responsible for Dumbledores death, I wrote this in my
first post to this thread. Snapes involvement in this would therefore
be purely for show, purely a sleight of hand or veil masking in
Voldemorts eyes the real going on at Hogwarts. 

Allowing Voldemort to percieve his defeat as a victory, regardless of
the details, is what I believe is the absolute answer to all
speculation on why DD died. 

If Harry killed Dumbledore with Voldemorts weapon, it is similar to
Harry using the Basilisk tooth on the diary, and Snape being brought
in to cover the whole thing up makes for a compelling *bangy*
correlation between the ring and the diary, I think. At some stage
Harry must discover that he did the real deed, and he must do it
again, oh the humanity of my theory! Please turn away before I even
consider writing any more. 



> Ceridwen:
> At least, if we're getting into the subject this deep, this is my 
> take on it, and it's just... creepy.

Valky:
You think *you're* creeping us out. I'm making all kinds of awful
accusations of Harry. I really deserve those rotten tomatoes now. 
Did I say my favourite theory, I think I meant my *least* favourite
theory.. eww. 


> Ceridwen:
> <snipped>
> Nearly Headless Nick suggested that ghosts are what 
> is left when a person is afraid of dying, or unwilling to move on.  
> Ghosts are spirits.  And they retain the shape or appearance of the 
> body in life.  Which doesn't quite jibe with the whole Diary!Tom 
> image as he's draining Ginny's spirit (if that's what it is he's 
> draining).  Or, would the two get together to create something akin 
> to the original anyway, just... slightly different?  Sort-of like 
> the possible appearance of a child created by the two individuals?

Valky:
I take that back, that *is* a creepy thought. What on earth are we
thinking? 

Just a quick answer to the bit I snipped, I think, yeah, you're right,
any one else undergoing those transformations would reduce to
something of the animal form that is relative to them, so for instance
Sirius would be a dog. But Sirius wouldn't do it, so its kind of wild
speculation. Except for the fact that it brings us back to Voldies
Spirit. Does he have a kind of Snake Spirit? Meaning that his
appearence as a snakelike creature rather than a man kind of
demonstrates his loss of balance between soul and spirit, he's been
cutting and dumping bits of his soul and hence becomes kind of spirit
heavy. The blurred features are the snake ghost in him becoming more
visible as the human soul fades and becomes transparent. So to say his
original face has faded and thats the blur, and the snake features are
the waxing spirit face becoming clearer. I think I have explained that
rather thoroughly, haven't I. Not really a quick answer. 

So as to the diary, if Tom is draining Ginny's spirit then in a sense
it would be likely that his snake likeness would be affected, changed
by Ginny's own spirit. I've looked for her patronus but we aren't told
what it is, so I have no speculation on what that spirit would look
like. In any case I don't think it would help as Tom is only described
as handsome in COS, no particularly interesting features are given.

What is interesting though is that Diary Tom has all three of the
essential pieces that we are discussing here when Harry destroys the
Horcrux. Is a partial body and a partial spirit enough to endow a
partial soul with a normal death? 



> Ceridwen:
> So, that's where I'm getting lost.  Body, soul and spirit must be 
> together, at least according to Judeo-Christian beliefs as handed 
> down to present.  Two together long for the third.  The spirit 
> *apparently* holds the form of the completed whole (unless ghosts 
> are souls and not spirits, I think most people see ghosts as spirits 
> and there has to be a cultural reason for that).  

Valky:
Again It seems I am looking at this wrongly. I am, also, rather lost
in my own contemplation now. And only very slightly closer to the real
definition of life and death in the Potterverse.

Valky
also with nothing left but to headdesk.