Draco the Death Eaters and Voldemort (was: Re: Draco's culpability...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 140057

> >>Alla:
> > Draco worked on opening the door, which led something or 
> > somebody who kills to Hogwarts. 
> > <snip>
> > So, I am not quite sure why he gets a pass from you since he 
> > used less deadly means which led to the very same end as if
> > he would work on a bomb for Dumbledore,

> >>Sistermagpie: 
> I don't think he *does* get a pass from her (correct me if I'm 
> wrong, of course, Betsy).  Her point isn't that working on the 
> cabinet has nothing to do with DD getting killed.  What Betsy is 
> doing, from what I read in the thread, is not trying to absolve 
> Draco of responsibility that is obviously his, but focusing more 
> on the meaning the act in the context of his story and character.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  Thank you for clarifying this so well, Sistermagpie, and 
welcome to the group.  Fixing the Vanishing Cabinet, though a means 
to a very ugly end is not, in and of itself, evil. 

[Actually, there's a sort of photo-negative comparison that can be 
made with Tom Riddle, here.  The search for immortality is not, in 
and of itself, an evil thing (see Flamel's Stone).  However, 
creating a horcrux is certainly an evil way of going about it.]

> >>Marainne:
> I have to jump in here. Draco is not a killer at this point simply
> because others have prevented it. Sure, Draco's target is DD, but
> the only reason that either Katie Bell or Ron did not die is due to
> happenstance. The only reason Draco is not a coldhearted, murdering
> little bastard is that his unintended victims just happened to be
> rescued. Draco worked on opening a door, but he also worked on a
> lethal necklace and poisoned mead.

Betsy Hp:
That's quite true.  And it's *very* lucky for Draco to my mind, 
because it leaves a door open for him.  I think the fact that no one 
died is what makes the conversation he has with Dumbledore at the 
end of HBP possible.  (Which means, of course, that it wasn't so 
much luck as JKR.  Yay JKR! <g>)

Though I'd also add that Draco's slow breakdown throughout HBP 
suggest that he's not really coldhearted, IMO.  I think if he *had* 
killed Katie or Ron he'd have broken completely.  (Compared to say, 
Tom Riddle or Peter Pettigrew who seem completely unaffected by any 
murders they've committed, inadvertent or otherwise.)

> >>Marianne:
> Draco has always had the option of refusing to play Voldemort's
> game. Sure, he's held at gun (wand) point. He can still always
> say "No." Had he refused at some point during the school year to
> continue on his quest to kill DD, then that would be the end. Sure,
> he might have died and in addition Narcissa may have been killed.
> But, that would have undercut Vmort's designs on killing DD, and
> would perhaps have benefitted the WW to a great degree than what   
> has happened at least in part due to Draco's pursuit of his quest.

Betsy Hp:
Don't you think you're asking a tremendous amount of Draco here?  
How many sixteen year olds do you know would be willing to sacrifice 
not only their lives but the lives of their parents for anything?  
Especially for a philosophy they've been raised to despise?  
Remember, as far as Draco is concerned, the Order, or folks of that 
ilk, put his father in jail.  

Honestly, do you think Harry would allow his mother to die to save 
Snape's life, if he was faced with such a choice?  Gosh, would Harry 
allow his mother to die even to save Dumbledore?  What would you 
give your mother's life for?

(This is another thing that's interesting to me.  JKR doesn't just 
give Draco a choice between his life and Dumbledore's.  She throws 
Draco's mom into the mix.  She's practically making Draco *noble*. 
Or at the very least, giving him one heck of a dilemma.)

> >>Betsy Hp (message #137075):
> > <snip>
> > I'm not sure if JKR had this particular idea in mind while she  
> > was writing, but once I noticed the pattern of three I          
> > immediately thought of Peter who three times denies Christ      
> > before the Crucifixion and then, after the Resurrection, is able 
> > to redeem himself when Christ asks Peter three times if he loves 
> > him. 
> > <snip>

> >>a_svirn:
> Do you mean to say that Draco loves Dumbledore? He seems to hide it
> well. And Peter was a disciple of Christ who denied him. Hardly
> applicable to Draco's situation.

Betsy Hp:
As I said, I don't mean for this to be taken literally.  I was 
looking more at the fact that Peter makes a wrong choice three times 
and then Jesus gives him three chances to choose again.  Draco 
attempts to become a killer three times (the necklace, the poisoned 
mead, and disarming Dumbledore).  Dumbledore essentially asks Draco 
three times to prove he's a killer, Draco is unable to do so, and 
Dumbledore tells him that he *isn't* a killer. IOW, Draco made three 
bad choices and Dumbledore gave him three chances to choose again.

> >>a_svirn:
> Yeah, three's a charm.

Betsy Hp:
I think you might be saying this flippantly, but it's quite true.  
In many different cultures and many different traditions, there *is* 
a charm (a magic) to the number three.  Just as there is to the 
number seven.  So I do think JKR was deliberate in the number of 
times Dumbledore and Draco went through that whole "best kill me 
then," "..." "Draco, you're not a killer" routine.  Especially when 
Draco is so strongly pressured to become a killer once the Death 
Eaters show up.

Betsy Hp, who once again pulled from many different posts so may 
have messed with the order of things a bit.