[HPforGrownups] Events At Godic's Hollow Re:That darn Prophecy again...

[Shylah]

No: HPFGUIDX 140123

> Elyse wrote:
>
> I was under the impression that Lily was already dead
> at the time of the AK and/or Horcrux-making spell.
> (Cruxio! with a swish and flick?)
> 
> As you said there was an object there that was intended to become a
> horcrux. I guess it had to be kept within a certain range
> at a certain point. And since the Horcrux-making spell (I'm going to
> call it Cruxio for want of a shorter word) is supposed to be
> extremely
> difficult magic. It would have needed some preparation, not just of
> the object, but the concentration required to "harness the soul".
> I doubt Lily would have stood around watching Voldemort
> preparing for her son's death.
> So I believe they were started after he killed Lily, not before.
> 
> However, I am still interested in this theory, despite my
> inclinations against Harry The Horcrux!
> So here goes the other side of the argument:
> 
> We know from the Dementors' effect on Harry in PoA that
> Lily was screaming "Not Harry, Not Harry, Please not Harry,
> Take me, kill me instead." Or something along those lines anyway.
> It is possible, given Voldemort's sadistic side,
> that he might have rendered Lily wandless and thus helpless
> when he came into the room. He might have forced her to watch these
> preparations, and explained, to her increasing horror, what he was
> going to do.
> So now that Lily knows about the proposed Horcux creation,
> she cries "Not Harry, take me, kill me instead, etc".
> 
> Now when Voldemort hears this, he thinks,
> OK It might make more sense to kill the "Chosen One" with all
> seven Horcruxes firmly in place. So when he releases Lily, she
> stands in front of her son, and makes a deal with Voldemort
> to use her death instead of Harry's to cast the Cruxio.
> And then suddenly Voldy changes his mind. He remembers
> the reason he came here was to use the death of the one who could
> possibly vanquish him. Lily screams that he made a deal that he
> cannot go back on, but Voldemort is no longer paying attention
> And so when she refuses to stop shielding her son, he kills her.
> 
> Now the nature of the deal that Lily made with LV was that he
> wouldnt touch Harry. Breaking this deal is what causes the AK along
> with the Cruxio to backfire, shredding LV's soul into two more
> pieces, one of which goes into Harry as his scar.And thus we have
> Harry the Horcrux!
> 
> Skipping back onto the other side of the fence, wasnt the nature of
> Lily's protection that Voldemort could not touch Harry?
> I think DD says it in PS/SS and in GoF Voldemort says something like
> "... I could not touch the boy...lingering protection resides in my
> veins also....but no matter I can touch him now" and puts a long
> white finger to Harry's cheek.
> So if the AK was unable to penetrate the no touch protection, how
> did the Cruxio pass through?
> If Quirrels physical touch was impossible in PS/SS then how would
> Voldy's *soul* be able to get into Harry's skin cells?
> 
> Elyse


Tanya now.

I snipped as much as I could.  I think the second option with the
memories Harry does have when the Dementors are near give this a
definate possibility.

If Lily was indeed wandless and 'helpless', I think that LV would have
had to magically bind her in some way so that she couldn't move.  That
would have appealed to him.  Afterwards, well, anything could happen. 
What always confuses me is that LV never appeared, in canon so far, to
petrify her, or some other knockout spell if he wasn't interested in
AKing her as soon as he entered the room where they both were. 
Perhaps he thought that the fear of him would keep her from responding
or trying to protect Harry.  As a muggle born witch, she would know
how to fight without a wand.  And as a mother, she would have tried
regardless of how well armed LV was in comparism to her.

But from the screaming Harry does hear around Dementors, it seems that
there was a bit of dialogue going on there.  The high cold laugh might
seem to fit better when he was telling her about what he planned.  In
canon it is right before the last flash of green light a second before
everything went wrong. There is no mention of it being cut off in mid
laugh.

I have considered all the segments of canon I can find, to see what LV
refers to over killing Lily.  The below idea could fit, as both times
he says that she was trying to protect Harry.

Another option could be that there was no verbal deal.  Instead, he
had her secured in the corner with a spell that wasn't going to last
forever, just a restraint that wears off soon enough.  The Impediment
jinx seems to relax after a while.  But having her upright to see what
happened would be more 'fun' for him.

However, just before he was ready to cast the spells to make the
horcrux and kill Harry, she is able to move enough to run over and get
in the way.  LV can either then order her out of the way, pausing long
enough before starting, to kill her, and then returning to the task at
hand.  It is said that this scenario was a one off, never done before.

But the timing is the tricky thing.  Without LV's words of stand aside
girl etc, I would have also suggested that she got free just in time
to throw herself between them as the spells started, giving him no
time to react.

Tanya