That darn Prophecy again.. Re: Thin air/Choices

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 140139

Ceridwen:
I'm so far behind in answering!  I don't know if I can even remember 
all the points I wanted to make, questions to ask!

Sarquel:
>So, heaven knows what powers are, but it appears that they do not 
>reside in the soul. I suspect that they might reside in the hand – 
>after DD destroyed the Horcrux and his hand died his powers were 
>greatly diminished – Snape and I think DD says so. Correct me if I'm 
>wrong. We also know that there is a connection through the mind 
>which could imply legilimency and that being in close physical 
>proximity to LV makes Harry's scar hurt.

I'm thinking that, wherever powers reside (I'd say soul), they need a 
tool or outlet to unleash them.  So, a hand is necessary as well.  
And, IMO, it must be a dominant hand to release the most effective 
use of those powers.  Yes, Snape (in Spinner's End) and DD (on the 
tower) both say that Dumbledore's powers have decreased.  My thought 
was that it was because of his dominant or wand hand being damaged.  
Like writing, he can do it with his non-dominant hand, but not nearly 
as well nor as naturally.

On possible legilimency, maybe.  Voldemort is a superb Legilimens, so 
everyone says.  This power, as well as Parseltongue, could have 
passed into Harry at GH.  But, I think the scar itself, horcrux or no 
(please, no!), is some sort of gateway into Harry's mind that was 
opened in the failed murder attempt, and that the connection that was 
forged is enough, even without a soul-piece, to operate even now, 
like a phone line left open, where people at both ends can hear 
what's going on at the other end, when they try to pick up the 
receiver.  But, maybe it is Legilimency.  In a different and stronger 
form.  This has never happened before, to anyone's knowledge, so no 
one knows exactly what to expect, least of all, us.

Sarquel:
>The nature of Harry's access to LV seemed to change after GoF
>rebirth. When some of Harry was put into LV, his blood, Harry
>started to experience Voldemort's emotions. Now, I'm going to
>suggest a two way link here. *(snip)*

I hadn't thought of that possibility before.  Could be, though.  
Dumbledore got twinkly at the thought of them sharing blood.  There 
must be *something* working there.  Not sure if the blood is the seat 
of emotions, but since I can't think of an alternative, and this 
makes sense, I'll go for it.

Oh.  Got another possible backup for this theory:  In GoF, Voldemort 
takes Harry's blood.  The next year, Dumbledore assigns Occlumency 
lessons.  Harry has dreams, and Voldemort will sooner or later notice 
the enhanced connection.  *sigh* Could Dumbledore's twinkle only mean 
that he thought he had the perfect way to make Harry and Snape bond, 
or at least stop being enemies?  Even if not, and I'm really hoping 
not, the enhancement must have come in GoF, and the most glaring 
change is the use of Harry's blood to not only fill V's veins, but to 
help create his new body.

Sarquel:
>The one with the power to vanquish: *(snip)*
>A little piece of each of them resides in the other, and is still
>connected to its original owner. *(snip)*
>Neither can live while the other survives: *(snip)*
>They cannot live freely, express their free will, because of the 
>presence of the other within them. *(snip)*
>Either must die at the hand of the other: *(snip)*
>this needs much more thouht before I commit it to a post.

Ceridwen:
Maybe that's why Dumbledore twinkled.  Voldemort is continually 
enhancing each part of the prophecy as he tries desperately to 
counter it.  He went to kill Harry and ended up marking him; he takes 
his blood and becomes bound to Harry as he bound Harry to him in the 
weird way we're discussing, all those years ago; the difference 
between living and existing is familiar to everyone, I think, but to 
think of it as having an unwelcome invader inside of one puts it at a 
different level.

I'm wondering exactly which part of the prophecy Voldemort was told 
now.  I thought I knew, I really did, but we're going off on so many 
tangents that I'm just not sure any more!  And Trelawney's 
interesting revelation about the Snape disturbance throws another 
brick into things.

Sarquel:
>I also have a problem with the whole notion of Harry surviving an
>AK. If Lily stepped in front of him, then she took the hit of the
>AK and it never got to Harry.

Ceridwen:
Same as the prophecy problem I've developed, and now I'm not so 
sure.  I really need to know how this played out, some sort of John 
Madden diagrams of who moved where and when, and what everyone else 
was doing, *might* help, but I doubt it.  I got confuzzled at Valky's 
explanation of how the rebounding AK was meant to kill whoever was 
harming Voldemort, which ended up being Voldemort himself.  Which 
sounds good, until I try to imagine the step-by-step in my mind and 
come up with the same thing you did.  *sigh*

Peaches:
>My question is this: if an act of extreme evil can create a horcrux
>might an act of extreme love do the same?

Ceridwen:
I've wondered if there was some way to make a non-murder version of a 
horcrux, which of course wouldn't be a horcrux but something else, 
IMO.  I wondered that ever since Harry found the fake locket lying 
next to Dumbledore.  Souls are released at death, can they move 
independently to anther object?  Or do whole souls, ones not torn by 
murder, just move on to the afterlife?

I also am hammering merrily away at the possiblity that the soul-
fragment in a horcrux will enter whoever is nearest, so long as 
they're alive, when the horcrux is either deactivated or destroyed.  
I forget who first mentioned this, but it just seems so right, and it 
explains (to me, anyway) Dumbledore's withered hand, and why Harry 
could 'kill' the diary in CoS without problems since he's got 
something of Voldemort (soul-piece, powers, something signature) 
inside of him that prevents his premature death from the new invading 
piece (Voldemort's soul-rides in animals killed them prematurely).

Brothergib:
>I agree about the piece of Voldie's soul floating around GH. My
>confusion starts with the fact that Voldemort killed James, but not
>Lily! Bearing in mind that to split the soul you need to commit
>murder, it does tend to suggest that Voldemort used James to split
>the soul (particularly if the soul is then floating around when
>Voldemort faces Harry).

Ceridwen:
It also provides *part* of the answer as to why Lily didn't have to 
die: the soul was already freshly torn from killing James.

Brothergib:
>Which then leads to the probability that Voldemort did not intend to 
>kill Harry. Surely if Voldemort was going to set up a Horcrux that 
>night (other than Harry), he would have used Harry's death to split 
>his soul!!

Ceridwen:
But, I'm not convinced of that.  True, Lily didn't have to die, and 
killing James already tore V's soul.  But, OTOH, it could be that the 
only reason either James or Lily died was because they got in the way 
of Voldemort killing Harry.  Which would be a given, since parents 
who care, will protect their children.  V doesn't make a horcrux out 
of every killing; he's interested in the magical properties of seven 
yet we know he's killed more than seven people in his life.  Kill 
James, Kill Lily, Harry would still be the target since V has 
determined that he's the child in the prophecy (or, he's on his way 
to the Longbottom's house next and is conveniently killed).

Brothergib:
>More importantly is Voldemort's indication to DD, that if he killed
>Harry at this point, then he would kill Voldemort. Is Voldemort
>suggesting that DD knows that Harry is a Horcrux and can therefore
>rid the world of Voldemort if he is willing to sacrifice Harry?

Could be.  I have reservations, though.  First, it could be that V's 
insistence on giving power to the prophecy has indeed imbued it with 
power, making it impossible for anyone but Voldemort to kill Harry 
before one or the other one dies. Second, I think V is simply trying 
to get rid of Harry and dumping the blame onto Dumbledore.  Harry's 
death would still be through V's manipulations if Dumbledore killed 
him; Dumbledore would be guilty of murder and put away; Dumbledore 
would probably be devastated if he killed Harry, and we saw in HBP 
how devastation, in love anyway, leads to a diminishing of powers; 
and we don't know if killing Harry would indeed kill Voldemort.  My 
reaction to this ploy of V's is to say 'get thee behind me, Voldy'.

Valky:
*(snip)*
>Harry's eyes would then essentially reflect the magic straight back 
>at Voldemort, and Voldemorts curse would activate sending death 
>straight back at Harry. But the curse cannot kill Harry, because 
>Harry has done nothing wrong, nothing at all. And the curse will 
>only destroy the one who tried to kill Voldemort, so it bursts back 
>out of Harry and straight at Voldemort. Voldemort might be the one 
>the curse is meant to protect, but he is also the guilty party who 
>tried to kill the protected, the curse is too crude really to see 
>the difference and it kills Voldemort, in the meantime blowing up 
>the house in it's confusion.

Ceridwen:
I see what you're trying to say, but it's here that I get all 
confused about what happened in GH to begin with.  If Lily stepped in 
the way of the AK and died for it, then V would have to shoot off 
another curse.  Did he?  I don't have the books handy right now and 
I'm about to turn in.  But, to answer this, I really need to know!

Valky:
>I alos do think that there is a line between unkillable and immortal,
>its a shady one, but I think enugh to motivate someone psychotically
>obsessed with not dying to cover both angles.

Ceridwen:
And, he was right in thinking his body would be able to be killed, 
which would give him an uncomfortable half-life existence, since 
that's exactly what happened.  He was operating on the premise that 
the prophecy had a fatal power to it, so he would have done 
everything in his power, IMO, to ensure that he was the one who lived 
through the confrontation, not Harry.

Valky:
> > What happens instead is that Voldmeort falls victim to a curse he
> > put on his own body, to make it unkillable. The scar therfore is
> > where Harry gets touched by that curse which is in line with what
> > Hagrid told him in PS/SS, and Dumbledore too was a victim of this
> > curse which would explain the lightning shaped crack in the ring.
>
Jen: 
>So Voldemort attempts to protect himself with the same curse
> that he put on the ring. *(snip)*

Ceridwen:
A personal mark of sorts, lightning bolt (TM) for a 'Curse by 
Voldemort'?  Now, that I do like!  But, going back to the soul and 
horcruxes and all that other headdesky stuff, the effects on Baby!
Harry and HorcruxHunter!Dumbledore are very different.  Harry is left 
with a scar that hurts when in proximity to Voldemort, as well as 
when he's in direct mental contact with him.  Dumbledore is left with 
a useless wand hand and diminished powers because of it.  Harry gains 
powers from Voldemort.  Dumbledore loses power.  Whatever is in the 
scar is protecting Harry from some of the worse side-effects that 
others apparently must put up with.  So, is it part of Voldemort in 
the scar?  Is it Lily's blood protection (and, getting ewww with 
Saraquel here, when Dumbledore said blood protection, could he have 
meant it literally, that Lily's actual blood followed V's gifts of 
powers into the scar and sealed it from any more?)?  Is it a 
combination?  Or recognition of that bit of Voldemort by the soul-
fragment?

Sorry to make this so long, but I'm trying desperately to play catch-
up before my mind takes a permanent vacation!  Thanks for a very 
interesting time!

Ceridwen.