That darn Prophecy again.. Re: Thin air/Choices

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 140144

Hi, prophetic seers, OK time to headdesk again.  This time to try 
and pull things out of the wealth of speculation which now lies 
before us.  Yes, I do believe you can be too rich!

First, just a point which has sprung to mind about the gleam in DD's 
eye.  Maybe, with the knowledge of Harry's blood going into a 
reconstituted Voldemort, DD saw some of the middle part of the 
prophecy being fulfilled.  Maybe, he had interpreted the prophecy to 
mean that they both needed to have a bit of the other in them for it 
to work and had been wondering or waiting for that to happen.  So 
the gleam is, that that part of the prophecy seems to have been 
properly set up now to be fulfilled, so that would renew his faith 
in it *all* being fulfilled, and strengthen his faith in his own 
plan. The fact that he looked downcast afterwards, is that this 
information did nothing to tell him who would triumph in the end.  
Just a thought!

Ceridwen wrote:
I'm so far behind in answering! I don't know if I can even remember
all the points I wanted to make, questions to ask!

Saraquel:
You are so not alone, Ceridwen! So I'm going to start from the 
beginning of the thread and pick up some points as I go along, with 
no attempt to weave them into a comprehensible whole.  I'll choose 
ones which I think other people haven't already ably addressed. You 
have been warned.

Valky wrote:
1. Is an Horcrux an intrinsic part of Voldemorts life and death? Or 
is
it a separate and distinct object once removed from the original 
body,
and therefore unrelated to the actual death of Voldemort.

Saraquel:
Personally, I think canon reveals that the severed portion of the 
soul is a separate entity which does not return to Voldemort on the 
destruction of a Horcrux.  IMO, DD's statement to Harry about the 
fact that Voldemort did not know about the destruction of the Diary 
clearly implies this.

I have speculated in the past that in order to go beyond the veil, 
you need a whole soul and a body (I won't repeat the arguments 
here).  If going beyond the veil is the process/event of 
dying/death, then having only a fragment of the whole of his 
original soul, would prevent Voldemort from going through the 
veil/dying.  Hence comments made in the book about Voldemort not 
being able to die.

To me, the problem in the prophecy is that at the beginning it talks 
about vanquishing Voldemort, but later on says, either must *die*.  
So that's rather a large problem if my above thinking has any merit.

In the rebirthing scene, Voldemort talks about settling for his old 
mortal body again. So there seems to be an emphasis on bodies when 
talking about death.  Well after those earth shattering, never 
before thought of revelations, I'll go on to the next point :-)

Ceridwen wrote:
Because I don't think Voldemort would be damaged by retrieving a
piece of his own soul from a horcrux, as Dumbledore was. The soul-
piece would recognize him as its owner. And, it seems, it would
recognize, on some deep inner level, Harry as the same. 

Saraquel:
It occurs to me that when Harry destroyed the diary in CoS, the soul 
piece, or part of it, was already inhabiting the body it had made 
out of Ginny's life force.  It was almost about to break free of the 
diary.  So when Harry plunged the fang into the diary he was not in 
close proximity to the worst of it.  But because there was still a 
connection between Riddle and the Diary, Riddle copped for it.  
Whereas, presumably, when DD was dealing with the ring, he was in 
very close proximity to it.

Ceridwen wrote:
Still, if this was accidental, a phenomenon of Nature rather than of
will, it would be different than deliberately creating a horcrux, or
even deliberate possession. Either it is some form of possession, and
would have killed Baby!Harry before long, if the soul-piece was
embedded inside of him.

Saraquel:
Good thinking here Ceridwen. The fact that possession kills the 
possessed, seems to me to be one of the stronger argument we can 
muster for Harry *not* being an accidental horcrux, after all he is 
very alive and kicking some 16 years later. If the reason he is not 
dying is because of the protection of Lily's blood, then expect him 
to start pegging out soon.  Great birthday present that one. 
Although, yes, if Nagini is a Horcrux, why is she not dying as we 
write? Either that says that a Horcrux *is* different from 
possession and a living horcrux does not kill its host, or, Nagini 
is not a horcrux either.  I do think that DD has made a cockup 
somewhere in his where-are-the-horcruxes theory.  I think this is 
quite possibly his huger mistake – rather than being anything 
involving Snape.

Brothergib replied to Valky's post:
I think you are saying that, in the end, it is one of Voldemort's own
Horcruxes that will be his undoing. <snip> However, I still feel 
that JKR makes far too much reference to the power that Harry 
possesses and Voldemort fails to understand! Therefore it still 
seems most likely that this will be Voldemort's undoing, rather that 
anything of his own making.

Saraquel:
I think I'm going with Brothergib on this one, but I do want to 
compliment Valky on her endless inventiveness, which brings me a 
great deal of pleasure, and this one has such a beautiful ring to 
it.  I think that JKR may well want to show just how powerful Love 
is, and having Voldemort effectively destroy himself, would 
illustrate the point that evil destroys itself, not that love 
conquers all.  But who knows Valky, you could be right.

Cerwidwen:
> This is where I would, regretfully, slip into thinking Harry is a
> horcrux, or else his scar. Yes, the scar, given the choice.
> Voldemort kills what he inhabits. If Vapour!Mort was soul or bits
> of soul, then this all fits together.
>
>Jen: You and me both, the 'regretfully' part :). As much as I
>personally dislike the idea, the evidence keeps stacking up. Every 
>argument I think of has a counter-argument.

Saraquel:
I don't know why I think Harry is not a horcrux, but I've always 
thought it and I'm hanging onto a bit of driftwood here, in the hope 
that Book 7 will float by and pick me up and give me a champagne 
lunch. Please don't desert me or it's going to be a long and lean 
couple of years :-)  I've thought of a lot of arguments for him not 
being one, and am amazed at the number of posts that proclaim that 
he is a horcrux without even seeming to realise he might not be. In 
fact, I remember one not long ago, that said something along the 
lines of, `and as Harry is a Horcrux then 
 follows.'  Maybe I 
should put all the arguments in one post and see, as Jen says, if 
there is a counter argument to each and every one of them.  But 
having said that, Jen, yes, I too find the notion that he could well 
be a horcrux, far too close for comfort, but I don't think you are 
grasping at straws!

Ceridwen:
> Harry addressing a deliberate horcrux would have the protection of
> a bit of Voldemort on his skin, denying entrance to the soul
> fragment in the horcrux, or at least tempering it to be more
> readily accepted, or even taking it into the outer skin instead of
> into the body at some cell or molecule level. A 'power the Dark
> Lord knows not'. Yet, one which makes Harry equal to him in the
> treatment of LV's horcruxes.

>Jen: This is such a compelling argument, but also the point where
>things break down for me re: Harrycrux. The idea of the face-value
>reading keeps coming up, and I do think JKR really means for the
>power the Dark Lord knows not to be love.

Saraquel:
Also, if the power which Harry has to fend of Voldemort, is in fact 
a bit of Voldemort, then how can it be a power the Dark Lord *knows 
not*?

I've got about half way through the posts and run out of steam. So 
I'm going to sign off here and see how things develop, before 
commenting further.

Saraquel