Keep Harry Horcrux Free Challenge!

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 140178

Saraquel:
Bowing to her opponents and bringing her wand to the en garde 
position. Trusting in her worthy second, Geoff, to pick up the 
pieces and fight on if she is mutilated in the duel!

Sarquel proposes:
> 1 )Evidence from Chamber of Secrets. <snip>
>If Harry was a Horcrux, intentional or not, that piece of soul
> would have been really trying to suck the life out of him and bring
> itself to life, particularly as Voldemort lost his body in the
> attempt.

>Valky counters:
>Two words.. Dudley Demented. <snip>
>Ginny who has experience in being possessed asks Harry, are there 
ties
>when you've blacked out, and can't remember what you've done. hMmm
>Can't rememeber hey? Well Harry certainly cannot *remember anything*
>in Dudleys life that would classify as a traumatic experience, and
>what if thats the point.. that Harry can't *remember* it..?
>Ok, grabbing at thin air, I know.

Saraquel replies:
Yes indeed Valky, I haven't even cast a spell yet :-)

>Sandy Counters:
>I credit Voldemort's inability to drain, or even influence Baby 
Harry, to remnants of Lily's protective magic.

Saraquel replies:
Ah, the expected riposte, which I admit has singed my hair, but I'm 
still on my feet. This is the strongest counter argument to this 
proposition, in my opinion.  But just because Lily's blood protects 
Harry, it does not necessarily mean that he is a Horcrux.  Harry 
needs protecting from a great many things. That DEs were active 
after Voldemort's demise is clear from the attack on the 
Longbottoms, and of course Harry definitely needs protection after 
Voldemort has returned.

Saraquel proposes:
2)Why does Voldemort need to use legilimency?
If Harry was a Horcrux, embodied Voldemort wouldn't need to access
Harry's mind through legilimancy, the Horcrux would presumably do it
for him and Voldemort would know simply by being aware of that part
of his soul.

Valky counters:
Legilimency would still be necessary even if Harry
was a Horcrux I think. We are explicitly given by Dumbledore that
Voldemort is probably not aware of his Horcruxes. This of course acts
as a balancer too, we, therefore, certainly cannot say, either, that
the connection between Harry and Voldemort is because of Harry having
accidentally become a Horcrux. In any fashion, the connection, and 
the
scar are additional to, or other than a Horcrux, IMO.

Sandy counters:
Snape tells Harry that Legilimency often requires eye contact and 
that
Hogwarts is surrounded with protections that should prevent it from
happening anyway. "The usual rules do not seem to apply to you,
Potter. The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some
kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord." OoP Ch. 24 US,
Occlumency. So it seems clearly stated that something *besides* (or
instead of) Legilimency is at work here.

Saraquel:
I bow to the logic or your arguments, and take the hit.  A mere 
trifle I assure you, a flesh wound only, for you have stated the 
counter argument for me Valky, thankyou – the connection, by your 
disconnection arguments, cannot be through a horcrux, which does 
imply something other than that being involved.  And my argument is, 
if that is the case, why does Harry need to be a horcrux as well?

Valky countered:
OTOH, one can remove the scar from the question, and yet postulate
that Harry is possibly a Horcrux. We have seen the scar shape on a
Horcrux before, 

Saraquel replies:
Have we? I think the Ring was cracked, it gave no indication in my 
memory of being necessarily in the shape of a lightening bolt.

Valky countered:
and Moody evidently believed that there were possible
indications of Harry being susceptible to possession by Voldemort.

Saraquel replies:
Who is not vulnerable to such a thing?  Maybe only DD was immune. If 
Voldemort wants to possess you, Voldemort will, IMO.

Valky countered:
There is also the Silver instruments, which Dumbledore used to
conclude that two Snakes were in essence divided. 

Saraquel replies:
I think you are assuming the two snakes represent Harry and 
Voldemort.  My reading is that they are the first clue that DD has 
that Voldemort has made a horcrux of Nagini.  In essence divided, 
but actually from the same source.

Valky countered:
And there is the chance that a Horcrux was made at Godrics Hollow, 
so hence the very real chance that it ended up in the wrong 
body/container.

Saraquel replies:
JKR has specified that the AK curse was used, and we know that 
another spell is needed to create a Horcrux.  First the murder, then 
the Horcrux. Voldemort was in no state to cast the Horcrux spell.


Saraquel proposed, ably improved on by Geoff:
3)Dumbledore in CoS
Uk Ed COS p245
"Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to
you the night he gave you that scar.

Sandy countered:
So, if that repeated action made of Voldemort's soul something so 
fragile and tattered that the sort of violent (house-flattening) 
magic GH involved could make an accidental horcrux in, on, or of 
Harry (and this is the theory I find most plausible), Dumbledore 
might not guess it.

Saraquel responds:
Now Sandy, such a slurr on Dumblemdore's powers of reasoning, 
deduction and anticipation I cannot leave without a determined, and 
well aimed jelly legs counter hex :-)

Dumbledore, IMO would have left no stone unturned, no possibility 
uninvestigated, especially as he knows that he is investigating a 
scenario which has never before been seen.  How long did it take for 
accidental-horcrux to arise in this group, where I think all of us 
would admit, our intellects are peanut sized in comparison to DDs?  
I suspect, less than one month.  Dumbledore had years to work on 
this.  In my mind, he has either been through the scenario and 
discounted it, or he has some very special reason for not telling 
Harry.  IMO, he would have told Harry in the Horcrux chapter at the 
very latest.  I cannot see any reason for him not to tell Harry by 
this time, even if he only suspected it as a possibility.  He has 
never implied even the possibility of an accidental horcrux, and 
that is because I think DD knows much better than we do where the 
*powers* of a wizard reside, and what it is of Voldeort's that is 
inside Harry.

Saraquel proposed:
> 4)Wizards and Muggles
> This one is my favourite and I think the most difficult to counter.
> Presuming that both wizards and muggles both have souls - there is
> no cannon evidence to support this, but I feel reasonably confident
> that it is so. The difference between muggles and witches (let's
> have gender balances here) is their magical ability – their powers.
> It therefore seems to me that magical powers are a separate entity
> to the soul.

Valky countered by dodging the hex and pointing out that Horcruxes 
are in the mix and we should consider them. Yes, we should consider 
them, but I do not yet believe it is *necessary* for Harry to be a 
Horcrux for the plot to resolve.  It somewhat depends on what JKR 
has in mind for the final showdown.

Sandy countered:
The ability to talk to snakes is IMO the most obvious thing (besides 
the scar) that Harry got from Voldemort. So the fragment of Voldie's 
soul in the diary had it, and so does Harry. How's that for a 
counter? 

Saraquel replies:
A touch of my wand to my hat to you Sandy, BUT, Riddle had created 
himself a body *before* he invited the Basilisk to the party and IMO 
a wizards powers probably reside in their bodies. I have already 
faced the eeew factor necessary to get powers into Harry by 
suggesting that a part of Voldemort's hand or brain went in to him 
when Voldemort exploded at GH.  (Although I'm now, not very quietly, 
retching all over my keyboard!)

Saraquel proposed:
> UK Ed HBP p473, DD said
> "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with
> your death. As we know, he failed."

Sandy countered:
Hey, if he loved Harry too much to tell him about the prophecy for 
all
those years, how strenuously do you think he'd have resisted
(something no more than a possibility, anyway) that Harry actually
harbored a bit of Voldemort's *soul* and was therefore probably
utterly doomed?

Saraquel replies:
Oh Sandy, thank goodness you're only *playing* devil's advocate – 
such slurs on DDs character are so painful to me :-) No, I think DD 
would have bitten the bullet, he knew after OotP how foolish it was 
for him to delay telling Harry.  Are you suggesting that he did not 
learn by this mistake?  DD may make mistakes, but I would bet my 
life, he always learns from them.

Valky struggled to counter.  However, the curse that hit her wasn't 
an AK, and she managed to post something shaky about Harry being 
like Nagini.  Saraquel helps her to her feet, and honours her as a 
powerful and skilled opponent :-)

I feel that I must leave Jen to answer for her own proposals, 
powerful as they are.

Well all in all, I think we have kept up a good solid defence of the 
Harry is *not* a horcrux theory.  And as JKR in no way indicates 
explicitly that we should think of Harry as a horcrux, I think it is 
in the hands of the pro horcrux theorists to make the case why it is 
*necessary* for him to be one.

Sandy wrote:
> Sandy aka msbeadsley, particularly thanking Saraquel and Valky for
> inspiring many mental meanderings

Saraquel:
Thank you Sandy, I'm glad you have enjoyed my posts (I agree 
wholeheartedly with you about Valky's posts) It's the mental 
meanderings which I enjoy too, the process of speculation for 
speculation's sake.  I really don't care at the end of the day about 
whether my speculation will be proved right or wrong.  JKR can make 
Harry a horcrux, Damn Snape to eternal perdition, Ship Harry with 
Hermione and make DD come back from the dead if she wants to, and I 
will still enjoy the ride, because I trust her to convince me – and 
she has never failed to do that yet over the things that really 
matter.

Saraquel