Keep Harry Horcrux Free Challenge!

[ellecain]

No: HPFGUIDX 140209

Hi there
I'm firmly inside the Harry-Is-Not-a-Horcrux camp
and although my argumentative powers are feeble,
I thought I'd aid Saraquel by throwing in my 2 knuts.

Saraquel proposes:
2)Why does Voldemort need to use legilimency?
If Harry was a Horcrux, embodied Voldemort wouldn't need to access
Harry's mind through legilimancy, the Horcrux would presumably do it
for him and Voldemort would know simply by being aware of that part
of his soul.

Valky counters:
Legilimency would still be necessary even if Harry
was a Horcrux I think. We are explicitly given by Dumbledore that
Voldemort is probably not aware of his Horcruxes. This of course acts
as a balancer too, we, therefore, certainly cannot say, either, that
the connection between Harry and Voldemort is because of Harry having
accidentally become a Horcrux. In any fashion, the connection, and 
the
scar are additional to, or other than a Horcrux, IMO.

Sandy counters:
Snape tells Harry that Legilimency often requires eye contact and 
that
Hogwarts is surrounded with protections that should prevent it from
happening anyway. "The usual rules do not seem to apply to you,
Potter. The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some
kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord." OoP Ch. 24 US,
Occlumency. So it seems clearly stated that something *besides* (or
instead of) Legilimency is at work here.

Elyse:
I have a hard time believing this argument.
In their first Occlumency lesson, when Snape explains what it is,
Harry says 
"And why does Professor Dumbledore think I need it sir?"
Snape gives him a look full of contempt, and goes
"Surely even you could have worked that out by now Potter,
the Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency-"

Now if there was something other than Legilimency at work here
why was it necessary to teach Harry its opposite - Occlumency?
I dont believe Dumbledore threw such violently antagonistic
people together just to make them bond.
Even Lupin and Sirius are shocked when they find out
Snape refused to teach Harry anymore. And Dumbledore's reaction in 
the end, where he says a lot of things like 
"It became even more important/urgent for you to close your mind"
"I have already said it was a mistake not to teach you myself"

Note that here he says his mistake was not to teach Harry himself
NOT "It was a mistake to teach you Occlumency thinking LV would use 
Legilimency when it was something else at work."
Surely if it  wasnt Legilimency, DD would have admitted it and
apologized to Snape and Harry?
He would have figured it out surely? Or is this another
"slur on Dumblemdore's powers of reasoning, 
deduction and anticipation? "

Saraquel proposed:
> 4)Wizards and Muggles
> This one is my favourite and I think the most difficult to counter.
> Presuming that both wizards and muggles both have souls - there is
> no cannon evidence to support this, but I feel reasonably confident
> that it is so. The difference between muggles and witches (let's
> have gender balances here) is their magical ability – their powers.
> It therefore seems to me that magical powers are a separate entity
> to the soul.

Sandy countered:
The ability to talk to snakes is IMO the most obvious thing (besides 
the scar) that Harry got from Voldemort. So the fragment of Voldie's 
soul in the diary had it, and so does Harry. How's that for a 
counter? 

Elyse:
I agree with Saraquel, magical powers are a separate entity to the 
soul. In PoA Lupin says if your soul is sucked out you become "an 
empty shell" devoid of thought, feeling, you simply exist. So this 
indicates  not only that the mind and personality is a function of 
the soul (tangent to discussion I know)
but also that your magical power - the ability to harness magic out 
of ether or whatever - still resides in you. Only now that you have 
lost your mind you cannot use it.

I believe the ability to speak Parseltongue must reside in genes
or blood. If Slytherin's heirs could all speak Parseltongue, are you 
suggesting they had Salazar Slytherin's soul in them?

Maybe after LV was "ripped" from his body, those magical powers
transferred themselves to Harry, one of which was Parseltongue.

Valky countered:
BUt* Harry knows that Dumbledore thinks Nagini is a Horcrux. And
Harry and Nagini share in common, a *lot* of things. This is a simple
adding of 2 and 2 to make four to come to the conclusion that Harry
may be another *like* Nagini.. So it could almost be said that
Dumbledore *has* lead him all the way.. all that is now required is a
bulletproof, watertight reason why Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry
directly. We don't have that.
 
Saraquel wrote:
Valky struggled to counter.  However, the curse that hit her wasn't 
an AK, and she managed to post something shaky about Harry being 
like Nagini.  Saraquel helps her to her feet, and honours her as a 
powerful and skilled opponent :-)

Elyse:
(who admires both Saraquel and Valky's speculative and persuasion 
powers immensely)

Sorry but what is it exactly that Harry and Nagini have in commom 
except the ability to speak Parseltongue?
Please explain, even if it does seem obvious to you.
I notice more similarity in LV and Nagini.
However this does not mean Nagini is a Horcrux.
I recall LV's features being snakelike at the time he
approached Dumbledore for the DADA position.
And I believe Nagini wasnt made a Horcrux until at least 10 years
after that time.

Hoping I gave Saraquel some support,
Elyse