Keep Harry Horcrux Free Challenge!

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 140227

> Saraquel:
> OK, I'm coming out fighting – here's the list in no particular 
> order, some of them have already had counter-arguments against 
them, 
> but not all.  Please feel free to either come up with a counter 
> argument, or add to the list!
> 
> 1 )Evidence from Chamber of Secrets. 
> The Horcrux in the diary fed off Ginny in order to bring itself to 
> life. If Harry was a Horcrux, intentional or not, that piece of 
soul 
> would have been really trying to suck the life out of him and bring 
> itself to life, particularly as Voldemort lost his body in the 
> attempt.  Although, we can see dark influences in Harry's nature – 
> the attempts at unforgivable curses for instance – it doesn't seem 
> to me that he has had to fight off the attempts of a Horcrux to 
> bring itself to life. Plus, Harry was only a baby when this event 
> occurred so absolutely helpless. 

Ceridwen:
I don't think it's a given that TR would have gone for Harry instead 
of Ginny.  He'd already softened her up and switching would have 
meant more work for him.  Also, Harry was fighting him, Ginny was 
laying on the floor obligingly dying for him.  And, I think that no 
matter which incarnation we'll come across of LV, he'll still think 
that women are there for only one thing - to give life and then die.  
I do think it affected him greatly that his mother died after giving 
birth to him.  Of course, he thought of the act contemptuously.  But 
I believe it colored his thoughts about women, and the weak (dying 
people, sick people, are notoriously weak).  So, I think it was TR's 
own POV in part, that made him stick with Ginny.

> Sarquel:  
> 2)Why does Voldmort need to use legilimency?
> If Harry was a Horcrux, embodied Voldemort wouldn't need to access 
> Harry's mind through legilimancy, the Horcrux would presumably do 
it 
> for him and Voldemort would know simply by being aware of that part 
> of his soul.  If Voldemort suspected that Harry was a Horcurx, 
which 
> surely he must have thought about, he would have made efforts to re-
> connect with that part of himself and not IMO be so dismissive of 
> Harry and so quick to AK him at the Ministry, knowing that he was 
> AKing his own soul.

Ceridwen:
For this, and for number 1 as well, Dumbledore said that Voldemort 
doesn't feel what is going on with his horcruxes.  He didn't know 
about the diary horcrux until he was told.  The soul pieces he's 
secreted into various objects are torn wholly away and are no longer 
in contact with him.  Given all of the wards, etc. in place at 
Hogwarts, and the fact that usually, one must have eye contact to use 
Legilimency, it's possible that a soul-piece facilitates, though 
doesn't negate the use for, Legilimency, making it possible to do it 
from a distance.

Now that I've supported Horcrux!Harry('s scar), I'll say that I think 
*anything* of Voldemort in Harry would facilitate the connection.  
Skin or blood, as you so squickily suggested; the powers they share; 
a spell/charm/hex we don't yet know about from GH...  Anything.  It 
doesn't have to be a soul-piece.  So, IMO, the mind bond is a non-
starter for either side.
> 
> 3)Dumbledore in CoS
> Uk Ed COS p245
> "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to
> you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to
> do, I'm sure 
"
> "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck.
> "It certainly seems so."
> DD seems to think that what was transferred to Harry was 
Voldemort's 
> *powers* not a bit of his soul.

Ceridwen:
That's only if one agrees that powers are not in the soul.  I'm not 
convinced one way or another at this point, there's too much to think 
about before reaching that interesting puzzle.  Right now, I would 
agree with you that powers are more of the physical or physiological 
than the soul or spirit.  But I think that, to have powers, one needs 
*all* parts, body, soul and spirit.  And, powers aside, the *power* 
to power the powers may reside in a different portion of the tri-
person.  Powers, magic, in the flesh/blood/brain, energy to activate 
and sustain those powers maybe in the soul or spirit.  Could be why 
there are Squibs.  They lack either the magic, or the power source, 
so can't bring the two together...

(Going off on a tangent here, could the power source reside in the 
heart?  If someone who is not magical does perform magic in book 7, 
could it be because they have found their heart/courage in a 
desperate situation, like mothers who heave cars off their kids?  
And, if being 'heartsick' over a lost or oblivious love can diminish 
one's magic, then that would be a heart effect, too)

> Sarquel:
> 4)Wizards and Muggles
> This one is my favourite and I think the most difficult to counter.
> Presuming that both wizards and muggles both have souls - there is 
> no cannon evidence to support this, but I feel reasonably confident 
> that it is so.  The difference between muggles and witches (let's 
> have gender balances here) is their magical ability – their 
powers.  
> It therefore seems to me that magical powers are a separate entity 
> to the soul. Hence making Harry a horcrux would not necessarily 
> endow him with Voldemort's powers.  So if you then argue that some 
> powers were also transferred when Harry was made a horcrux – I 
> simply reply, why bother with the soul bit – why not just leave it 
> at powers? 

Ceridwen:
Or, as with Squibs, do Muggles lack only *one* component, magic or 
power source, and when someone with one marries and has a child with 
someone who has the other, you get a Muggle-born witch or wizard?  
(Yes, I'm having fun on my tangent.  From what I understand, they're 
a lot like roller coasters, at least if you draw them on paper)

My whole uncertainty as to the Horcrux!Harry('s scar) idea is that, 
with all the magic and destruction flying around in GH that night, we 
do know that Harry got some powers unintentionally.  I do think it's 
possible he *could have* also gotten the torn piece of soul that came 
from his father's or his mother's death.  I think, under those 
circumstances, I can't rule it out.  But, since it would have been 
accidental, it also wouldn't be properly called a horcrux, and since 
there was no ritual enacted, or one which may have been started 
(Valky?) was never properly closed...

Another tangent.  Even if Harry didn't get a soul piece, *if* a 
ritual had been started, the connection between Voldemort and Harry 
would not have been closed, since (I'm assuming) closed the ritual.  
In fact, part of a ritual horcrux making could involve the connection 
between the bearer of the soul-piece and the object which would 
become the new bearer.  Instructing the connection to commence on the 
object that took something of the bearer...  That ritual's power 
would also have been ricocheting around the place, and might have 
followed a soul piece, or the powers, as they went into Harry...

Anyway, no matter what happened, Voldemort didn't know about Harry 
getting duplicates (assuming again, since Voldemort still has these 
powers) of his powers, he didn't know about the connection, and *if* 
Harry got a soul piece, he didn't know that, either.

> Sarquel:
> 5) Dumbledore in HBP
> UK Ed p473
> "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with 
your 
> death. As we know, he failed."  I really think DD would have 
thought 
> about the accidental scenario.

Ceridwen:
Yes.  I do believe this.  Dumbledore knows a lot, more than we do.  
He would have considered every option, I'm sure.  Though, he doesn't 
say that accidents can't happen, and he doesn't say that Harry is or 
isn't a horcrux.  Obviously, he didn't make a horcrux with Harry's 
death, Harry isn't dead.  He did have at least one soul piece torn, 
from killing James.  Did it stay attatched to the original soul?

Though, even if Dumbledore didn't address the unspoken possibilities, 
I do think he's just being as simple and straightforward as possible, 
so he won't burden Harry with all sorts of what-ifs and such that 
have no bearing on the situation.

> Saraquel:
> Plus 3 courtesy of Jen in post 140041 
> 6) Even though I personally love the idea Harry is gifted in
> destroying the Horcruxes in a way DD is not, the diary did not have
> any curses upon it the way the ring did. So we can't know that for
> sure yet.

Ceridwen:
True.  Though we don't know if the diary had curses that were either 
switched off because the memory or soul part was active and connected 
to a being, or if Harry just magically got through them the way the 
DEs got up the tower stairs despite the Order being kept out.  Still, 
we don't know.  And, even if Harry has some affinity for destroying 
LV's horcruxes, it may not necessarily come from a soul part, but 
from the powers he and LV share, or something else we don't know 
about yet.  (Though, isn't it getting a little late to have things we 
don't know about yet?)

> Sarquel channeling Jen:
> 7) Harry did not feel any affinity at all for the locket at 12 GP,
> if indeed it is a Horcrux, nor could he open it, same as the others
> present.

Ceridwen:
But, even Voldemort has no actual connection to his horcruxes, so why 
should any of the horcrux soul pieces feel connected to any of the 
others?  And, did he really try to open it, or just give it a brief 
go?  The diary, IMO, was meant to be opened and explored.  The locket 
isn't.  What it will take to open it, if it's a suspected horcrux in 
book 7, even if it turns out to be a horcrux (probably is), might be 
a bit more, the right spell, perhaps, than the diary.  And, the diary 
didn't have to be opened to be destroyed.

> Saraquel channeling Jen:
> 8) In the cave, DD said: "I think we must resign ourselves to the
> fact that they [Inferi] will, at some point, realize we're not Lord
> Voldemort." (chap. 26, p. 564) And they do!! I know this is pitiful
> little evidence, but I think if Harry is somehow recognized to have
> part of Voldemort in him, the Inferi would not bother him.

Ceridwen:
But, if Harry doesn't know/speak the right words, they may attack 
even if they recognize part of Voldemort in him.  Like the Raspberry 
Jam codeword, or, funnier, Mollywobbles.  JKR has a habit of bringing 
things back from side roads.  For Inferi, for all the horcruxes, 
whether Harry has part of Voldemort's soul or something else 
recognizeable from him, he may still have to use the 'password'.

And I'll bet it's in Parseltongue, just like the entrance to the CoS.

> Sarquel:	
> >Borthergib wrote:
> >What if Voldemort had succeeded in making Harry a Horcrux that 
> >night at GH. But the love flowing through him from his mother's 
> >sacrifice had violently expelled the Horcrux. This left the 
> >lightning shaped scar (as with the ring) and destroyed GH as well 
> >as Voldemort. Harry would possess many of Voldemort's powers 
having 
> >once been touched by Voldemort's soul, but would not technically 
be 
> >a Horcrux any longer!!
> 
> Yes Brothergib, this has promise!  It had occurred to me that the 
> scar might represent something coming *out* of Harry, rather than 
> something going in.  I was toying with an idea that Voldemort was 
> planning to make Harry into a Horcrux at GH, the ultimate 
> humiliation for Harry – to in effect be ruled by Voldemort's soul 
> from babyhood.  But then that wouldn't square with him wanting to 
> use Harry's murder to do it – I ended up with a Horcrux!Inferi <g>


Ceridwen:
Or, it could be something of Harry that impacts Voldemort.  Bone, 
blood, skin, soul, love, curiosity, something that goes with the two-
way connection between them now.  Since we don't know what went on at 
GH, how long Voldemort kept his body before succumbing, yadda-yadda, 
we can't say.  And this may be way too speculative.  But, I do think 
about the light coming out of the lightning bolt 'P'-for-Potter in 
the films (note to list elves: the iron is heating as I type), and 
JKR's involvement with the films, and her approval of what is done, 
and I can see something coming out of the scar that inspired the 
shape of those initials, with her approval, and maybe even a smirk 
because it's a clue.  *shrug*

Off to iron my hands.

Ceridwen.