Sadistic!Snape? (was:Snape's canon opposite/ Proving loyalty...)

[amiabledorsai]

No: HPFGUIDX 140337

First let me apologize to the group.  I let my enthusiasm run over
yesterday, and made far more than my quota of posts.  Sorry about that.

So, back to our discussion of that cuddly philanthropist and peerless
pedagogue, Severus Snape.

Betsy Hp:
I've remarked on this before, but I think Snape had a very deliberate
reason for his opening gambit with Harry in PS/SS. Remember, Harry's
celebrity status, at this point, is huge. Harry is hero-worshipped to
such an extent that Gryffindor breaks into a
gleeful chant when he gets sorted into their house, and a teacher
actually faints when he gets Harry in his classroom. Snape, I'm sure,
noticed all of this.

<huge snip and partial rearrangement>

... But I believe that exchange <Snape and Harry's first classroom
interaction> shaped Snape's
treatment of Harry over the rest of the books.

Amiable Dorsai:
So he formed a snap impression of Harry from one classroom
interaction, either didn't bother to compare notes with his colleagues
or ignored their opinions, blinded himself to any evidence that might
contradict that opinion, and based his entire approach to Harry on
that basis.  So he's not a sadist, he's a crank.  Gotcha.  Thank you
for the correction.


Betsy Hp:
 It's canon now that there *was* a thought within certain circles that
Harry may become a Dark Lord himself, and that Snape was aware of such
theories. And Harry does bare an uncanny physical resemblance to
James, who did not handle his popularity well (from Snape's POV anyway).

Amiable Dorsai:
Ah, therefore he decided to alienate the budding young Voldepup, 
insuring that he, the one person who saw through this Dark Lordlet's
facade, would be in no position to influence his character for the
better.  The brilliance of this gambit just takes my breath away.

This then, was not sadism, but stupidity.  Check.


 > >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...insulting an orphan's father...

Betsy Hp:
Whenever Snape brought up James it was usually (IIRC) when Harry was
doing something colossally stupid, like sneaking into Hogsmeade when
there was a mass murderer out for his blood. Snape, with good reason
(especially after reading some of Sirius's "advice"), was trying to
turn Harry away from emulating his father. Snape chose a piss-poor way
of going about it, I grant. But again, I see a reason for his
behavior. Enjoyment of Harry's suffering wasn't it, IMO.


Amiable Dorsai:
Because sarcasm and insulting James has always done so much to
influence Harry's behavior for the better.  Not a sadist then, just a
one-trick pony.  Okay, got it.

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...insulting a student's looks...

Betsy Hp:
And by doing so kept his Seeker out of detention and on the field...

Amiable Dorsai:
He excused despicable behavior from a student because that student was
on his House team?  So he's not a sadist, he's a cheater.  Roger.

I'm really beginning to appreciate your analysis of Snape's character.


> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...playing favorites...

Betsy Hp:
While not a good thing for a teacher to do, I'm not sure how this is
sadistic behavior.

Amiable Dorsai:
You're right, it does serve better to illuminate his other character
flaws, doesn't it?


> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...casting aspersions on a student's intelligence to another teacher
in front of the student and his classmates...

Betsy Hp:
Again, not good behavior, but hardly sadistic. (McGonagall made sure
everyone in Gryffindor house saw Neville as the house dunce. Why isn't
she labeled sadistic?)

Amiable Dorsai:
Actually, I agree with you that McGonagall is sometimes over the top.
 This excuses Snape how, exactly?

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...making an unjustified criticism of another teacher to that
teacher's class...

Betsy Hp:
As McGonagall does with Trelawney? Again, not very sadistic, to my mind.

Amiable Dorsai:
Let's see... McGonagall reassured a student who was badly shaken by a
spurious prediction of his own imminent death; Snape tried to undercut
a colleague against whom he nursed a grudge.

Yep, perfectly comparable situations. 



> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...threatening to poison a student's pet and then being abusive
after he's thwarted...

Betsy Hp:
Actually, I'd catagorize the toad incident as trying to vividly drive
home the lesson that the potions the students are making are
*supposed* to be consumed. Frankly, I think Snape was trying to reach
Neville here...

Amiable Dorsai: 
'Cause, you know, threats and intimidation have always worked so well
to improve Neville's class performance.  Kicking it up a notch will
surely create even better results...  


Betsy Hp:
...It didn't work, unfortunately. And taking five
points for Hermione's cheating strikes me as something much less than
abusive and certainly not sadistic.

Amiable Dorsai:
No, just inconsistent.  Snape punished Harry because he didn't help
Neville; he punished Hermione because she did. 

Snape does seem to enjoy these little lose-lose situations, doesn't
he?  Nope, not sadistic at all.  Nope, nope.

>>Amiable Dorsai:
> And then there's the time he tried to have the very souls of two
innocent men destroyed.

Betsy Hp:
You mean the mass-murderer and the teacher who helped him into the
school where he nearly killed a student? Those innocent men? Shall we
accuse Harry of sadism since he expressed a desire to see Sirius dead?

Amiable Dorsai:
Harry was willing to hear evidence that countered his preconceptions.
 Snape was not.

It's been suggested that Snape was merely having a bit of fun with
Sirius and Lupin, that he wouldn't *really* turn them over to be
Kissed before new evidence could be presented.

But that can't be right can it?  You've proven beyond all doubt that
Snape hasn't a sadistic bone in his body.

So what are we to make of this?  That Snape's sense of justice is less
well developed that that of a 13-year-old?  Sure, I can live with that.


> >>Lealess:
> Honestly, Snape is not cut out to be a teacher.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think he's an excellent teacher, myself. I just think he's of a
certain (out of favor now unfortunately) sort. It's been discussed
ad nauseum, but I don't see any evidence that any student suffered
unduly in his classroom. And yes, that includes Neville. Neville who
still has a pet toad and who doesn't seem all that afraid of
Snape anymore, IMO.

Amiable Dorsai:
Nor has he any hope of advancing further in a subject closely related
to his best field of study.

It's kind of ungrateful of me, I suppose, to be so hard on old Snapey;
back in college, I used to tutor high school students in math and
science. Lazy teachers like Snape provided me with pretty good
spending money.  It was particularly gratifying, not to mention
lucrative, when I found a student who was quite capable of learning
the subject, but who had been turned off by incompetent instruction. 
There was one math teacher, who, like Snape, tried to intimidate his
students into learning the material themselves, rather than take the
effort to teach it.  He was always good for two or three clients a year.  

Worked out for almost everyone: I had gas and date money, my clients
did well enough to pass (one is now an electrical engineer, so at some
point, this kid who was "hopeless" at math was solving partial
differential equations), the teacher was able to slack off.

It saddens me that such teachers are now, as you write, "out of favor"
how are today's college students to earn an honest dollar, if that's true?

Amiable Dorsai