Strictly Potions, Snape or Lily WAS Re: The handwriting in the book

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 140436

Replies to Carol and Dungrollin. I have chopped and rearranged and I'm
not sure I have answered all points on the subject.  

Valky:
> While we were on the subject of Snapes sense of humour I wanted to
add a note about the Bezoar. I forgot there so I'll just notch it in
here. Just shove a bezoar down their throats. Cheeky, no? Cheeky was
Lily's style. It's falling in the wrong field of wit to have
Sarcastic Snape behind it.
>

Dungrollin:
Hmm... I don't think we've got enough information to pin it to
Lily's style. To me it sounds more like Ron than anybody. I agree
that it doesn't sound bitter enough for Snape, though there's a
tinge of arrogance to it that reminds me of Sirius and James. I read
it as a clue that Snape wasn't always bitter and dismissive and
cold. Current Snape would write simply "Bezoar. Does this fool know
nothing?"

Carol wrote:
....however much the young Severus may recommend
stuffing a bezoar down someone's throat--which does not sound to me at
all like something our gentle Lily would say.


Valky now:
Actually I do think that we have direct canon information suggesting
that it is exactly Lily's style.

HBP Chapter 18 page 354 Bloomsbury edition.
"'And you, Harry,' he said. 'what have you got to show me'?'
Harry held out his hand, a bezoar sitting in his palm.
...........
'You've got a nerve boy!' he boomed, taking the bezoar and holding it
up so that could see it. 'Oh you're like your mother...'
...........
...Slughorn 'And and extra ten points to Gryffindor for sheer cheek!'"

Apart from this, I can't find the quote, but Slughorn also spoke
fondly of Lily often giving him cheek in his classes. Then aftre
Aragogs burial he again tells Harry, a third time, that his mother was
likeable because of her sense of humour.

Whether you consider Slughorn reliable for the absolute truth or not,
is no reason to question his consistency about what he likes. He knows
what he likes, and he thought Lily was funny, cheeky. And he
attributes the self -same cheek to the Bezoar as an antidote, he
attributes it directly to Lily. It's Lily's style, simple and
straightforward canon proves it.


Carol:
We also have
Snape's established gift for Potions, demonstrated in all the books,
mentioned by Slughorn in HBP and tacitly acknowledged by Dumbledore
when he offered young Snape the post of Potions master rather than
DADA teacher. Why deny or denigrate it? 

Valky:
I'm sorry, I don't think it's *that* personal, Carol. :D
I always got the sense prior to HBP that Snape himself was less than
fond of his potions reputation. He seemed to me to be even somewhat
resentful of being turned to for Potions brilliance all the time. His
DADA fascination half answered the question for me when we discovered
it to be true to canon. I began to understand that he would prefer to
be turned to for his abilities in DADA, than for Potions. So in any
case I have never really considered Snape to love Potions as much as
all that since POA and especially GOF. Being the resident Potions Hand
didn't give him pleasure nor stroke his ego the way I felt it should.
That's merely my canon interpretation of Snape, I have no personal
intent to denigrate the character I am only trying to read it.

Carol:
To return to Valky's post for a moment: Why would young Snape suggest
adding a peppermint leaf to a Euphoria potion? Maybe because he knew
the side effects and didn't want to experience them? Maybe as an
intellectual exercise to see what worked? Maybe his mum gave him that
particular hint, but there's no canon evidence that she excelled at
anything other than gobstones. Maybe he looked across the room and saw
Lily adding one or overheard Slughorn praising her for doing so. But
considering all the other experimentation that he's doing, it makes
just as much sense to take the straightforward approach of assuming
that it's as much his own idea as Sectumsempra (which is clearly a
retaliation for bullying by "enemies").

Valky:
But my point is that intellectual makes less sense that intuitive in
this particular case, and Slughorn insists that Lily's ability was
intuitive while we know with fairly reasonable assurity that Snapes
ability is generally intellectual. 
It is intuitive and sensitive to add an ingredient that creates a
perfume, and reduces side effects. I don't deny that it can be reached
intellectually I just wonder if that is how it *was* reached. Its
clearly easier to come up with an ingenuity that provides pleasantries
and generousity to the user *when* that is your intention. 

Dungrollin was interested in this aspect of my argument too:
And (to repeat myself), I see no reason to assume that someone who
invents a way of reducing the side effects of a drug or potion has
to be in any way concerned with the well-being of the person who
takes it. It's like suggesting that a construction engineer who's
working on a hospital must be a philanthropist, or that anyone who's
done research into cancer treatment must be a saint. They're not
saints, they're researchers, driven by a desire to understand the
world and how it works. (Okay, some of them *might* be saints, but
my point is that it is not a prerequisite for the job, nor is it a
prerequisite for having an interest in the subject...)

Valky replies:
But I am not suggesting that philanthropy is a prerequisite for a
civil engineer, I am saying that a philanthropic engineer would find
it easier to think of a way to make people comfortable and add
pleasantries to their work. A non-philanthropic engineer could achieve
it mechanically, sure, but that doesn't detract from the fact that
someone whos first intention is to add comfort and generosity to their
work would probably get there first. A saintly cancer researcher would
possibly be more inclined to avoid a path of suffering in their search
for a cure, while one who is purely interested in the mechanics and
intracacies of the science would go any path that did the job. Hence
peppermint flavoured cancer cures are more likely to come from the
first than the latter, although either could get there eventually.

Valky previously:
Snape is neither gentle nor
well groomed, he doesn't have the sensitivity required to percieve
the growth in Hermione's teeth in GOF, nor does he possess any
obvious sensibility about his own appearance. These are the
aesthetics that translate into the potions improvements, and they
aren't Snapes style.

Dungrollin:
Sooo... ugly people can't appreciate a Titian or Rembrandt? Ever
seen Rembrandt's self-portrait? Okay, I know that's not what you
were arguing, but it's like saying that all Doctors must have a
wonderful bedside manner because they're there to cure people. It's
just not true, and neither is it true in the Potterverse: Madam
Pomfrey's quite scary, and I don't remember offhand any sign of
gentleness in her among the many times Harry ends up in the hospital
wing.

Valky:
You admit that's not my argument, and neither is it like saying a
doctor needs a good bedside manner. It's like saying a doctor with a
good bedside manner as long as he is a proficient doctor, will give
the patient a *little extra* to take away with him. A'la Patch Adams,
see. 
Snape is a highly competent doctor (read potionmaker), but with his
apparent bedside manner he would need to intellectually conclude that
a little extra niceness will help the patient (read drinker) to be the
more likely to come up with a sprig of Peppermint the thing is
intellectually that doesn't conclude so easily. 

It's not to say it didn't happen, but the question remains, with an
intuitive potioneer in his class and in his group of elite, was
"Snape" really the first to add a sprig of peppermint?

Valky