Conflict, imposition, and morality

[msbeadsley]

No: HPFGUIDX 140612

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at h...>
wrote:
> Sandy:
> *(snip)*
> > It seems to me Snape stopped being quite so 
> > respectful during the conversation Hagrid 
> > overheard; is that a clue?
> 
> I think it might be, if you're talking about moral/behavioral
codes.  
> What one does in private can be different than what one does in 
> public.  In public, one presents a united front, toward students if 
> one is a teacher, toward neighbors if one is part of a family. 
> Showing discord or falling apart publicly is 'airing dirty linen in 
> public' and is discouraged.  That they took their discussion to a 
> place where even the portraits couldn't overhear, may indicate 
> something along these lines.  And, since one is a spy and the other 
> is his superior in a more military sense, it makes even more sense 
> not to go airing their differences publicly.

I meant, was it a clue in regards to Snape's attitude about Dumbledore
changing, in preparation for the events on the Tower? I wish I had a
Time Turner and could go and buy book 7 and just know already, dang
it! We have little experience with conversations between Snape and
Dumbledore that have to do with the Order or Voldemort; they were
simply in the habit of being discreet, probably because some of what
they talked about could have cost lives if it had been revealed.

> Since religion has been brought in, I don't feel too bad in 
> furthering it.  *g*  I've been reading along here, and it seems to 
> me that Snape is behaving much like the Good Brother in the parable
> of the Prodigal Son.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been a while since I delved into the
scriptures, but I don't think The Good Brother ever went off and
joined a bunch of sheep stealers or pillagers or whatever the
equivalent might have been back then. Snape, IMO, is closer TO the
prodigal than the older brother. (And his return to good and
Dumbledore might have been celebrated more thoroughly if people hadn't
been busy mourning James and Lily...)

>  The way that parable is usually taught, the older 
> brother who did no wrong, is considered to be petty at the least
for 
> feeling steamed that his younger brother, who took his inheritance, 
> blew it, practically gave their father 'the finger' when he left,
is 
> welcomed back with open arms and the killing of an animal
apparently 
> intended for celebration.  While the good brother has continued on 
> the family farm, respected their father, done his duty, not shamed 
> the family name, and so forth, and got no obvious reward.  He 
> certainly wasn't feted!

The Good Brother was painted as at fault for his lack of forbearance
and his covetousness, IMO and recollection. While Snape may have had
the same feelings, overall this strikes me as lacking resonance when
applied to Snape. The Good Brother resented that following the rules,
as he had been taught had value, didn't pay off with the sort of
dividend his brother got for coming home after having caused the old
man grief and suffering.

> Snape insisting that Harry work with the 
> incident cards for his detention, so he could see how bad his
father 
> and the other Marauders were, I think, supports this sort of 
> reading.

If Snape was rubbing Harry's nose in his father and company's
trespasses again with the intent of redundantly showing Harry how
awful many of the people who have loved him were as adolescents, then
I am contemptuous of him for it (and I just don't need any more
reasons to hold Snape in contempt). 

> The parable goes on to make the point that the father, being a 
> father, is just plain glad that his son, who may well have been
dead 
> since he had no contact with his family for some time, is back.  It 
> suggests that the good son (no, I haven't seen that movie) is 
> *wrong* not to be happy that his father is happy.  And that's valid,
> too.

The parable is meant to draw a parallel between the Prodigal Son and
those children of God who fall away from observance of His laws. It is
meant, in all the interpretations I'm aware of, to act as an
illustration that God holds out a carrot, not a stick. That every
soul, no matter the transgressions, is precious to God and that He
aches to have each sinner repent and come home. (I was raised So.
Baptist; can you tell? <veg>) The Elder Son is the part of the parable
which warns off those who follow the rules from getting smug,
self-congratulatory, envious and/or resentful or punitive (echoed in
"forgive us our trespasses as we...") about those who don't. In that
sense it works for me, for I can easily see all of those in Snape. But
the idea that he would see himself as the "sinless" one makes me a
little sick, actually.

> But, the good brother isn't wrong in feeling put out, either.  I 
> think any of us could sympathize, if the parable wasn't meant to 
> show something totally different.  Good brother has been good all 
> along, yet he's pushed aside because the bad brother comes crawling
> home.  Snape is pushed aside, told not to tell about Lupin's 'furry
> little problem' even though it nearly got him killed.  He's put into
> danger by spying, while every effort was made to keep James and his
> family safe.  He's done what he was expected to do, kept to the 
> rules, while Harry has broken them all over creation - one of those
> kids who get away with murder while other kids would be punished.  
> And, he's celebrated, James is well-liked, while Snape, doing what 
> he's supposed to do, is pretty much ignored unless it's to send him
> into more danger.  As if his life isn't as valuable or desired as 
> Harry's or James's.

Snape is the only one properly to blame for the devaluation of his
life once he joined the DE. The Snape who was warned off telling
Lupin's secret was a pre-fall Snape, AFAWK, a very different
individual, in spite of the fact that we have seen that even then he
grasped after acclaim and respect by hunting up and pointing out
others' shortcomings instead of exerting himself to excel and earn his
laurels more honestly; perhaps he hasn't/hadn't the self-esteem to
believe he can/could earn points honestly or any role models in his
life to suggest the possibility.

I absolutely think that the series is going to conclude as follows:
Harry = hero/protagonist
Voldemort = antagonist
Snape = anti-hero (heh, pretty literally...but *very* anti-antagonist)

Snape eventually figured out he really did want to "do the right
thing"--just this side of too late; he never had an accessible role
model for "good" until after he'd gone "bad" and so was left with no
choice but to spend the rest of his life backpedalling. (Now you have
me thinking of Snape as prodigal, and it's working for me SO much
better than the other way.)

> And, all this talk about a twenty year old grudge, I do stop and 
> think, it isn't twenty years old.  It's as recent as the last DE 
> meeting Snape attended, definitely as recent as the end of GoF. 
The 
> Order protects James and Harry; the Order throws Snape to the lions.

The Order *could* protect James (although it failed before long)
because James never went off and sold his soul to the bad guys! The
Order protects Harry because its members have come to care for him and
because he may be their last, best hope for victory, as well as
because it's the right thing to do. Everything I remember says that
Snape *volunteered* to turn spy in the wake of his sea change. There
is no canon for anyone "throwing" him anywhere, and if that is how he
feels, then he has yet one more symptom of lagging adolescence
showing. IMO. Poor ickle Snape is never going to work for me any
better than poor ickle Dudley or poor ickle Draco; I am not angelic
enough to fight off the satisfaction I feel at seeing (at least
literary constructs) bullies get some comeuppance. (And before anyone
plunges fingers to keyboards in haste to remind me of MWPP, let me
just add that there's never a second chance to make a first
impression. And MWPP tormented a peer, not an inferior.) 

The only way this "Good Brother" thing works for me is if the last
book makes it clear that Snape's initial decision to join the Death
Eaters was part of an infiltration plan that far back. Not very
likely, IMO.

Sandy aka msbeadsley, still goggling at the notion of Snape as the
Good Son...