Conflict, imposition, and morality

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 140616

Sandy
*(snip)*
> I meant, was it a clue in regards to Snape's attitude about 
Dumbledore
> changing, in preparation for the events on the Tower? 

Ceridwen:
I was suggesting that, at this point, things were probably as usual.  
They didn't discuss it where they could be overheard, even by 
portraits.  As you say, they were being discreet.  And, in this sort 
of privacy, Snape and Dumbledore would feel more able to 'let it all 
hang out', say what they feel, argue a bit, and as Dumbledore did, 
put the foot down without worrying about anyone else overhearing.  
Not 'airing dirty linen' where others could hear.

> I wish I had a
> Time Turner and could go and buy book 7 and just know already, dang
> it! *(snip)*

Me, too!  The more we all discuss the possibilities, the more 
possibilities there seem to be to discuss!
> 
Sandy:
*(snip)*
> Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been a while since I delved into 
the
> scriptures, but I don't think The Good Brother ever went off and
> joined a bunch of sheep stealers or pillagers or whatever the
> equivalent might have been back then. Snape, IMO, is closer TO the
> prodigal than the older brother. (And his return to good and
> Dumbledore might have been celebrated more thoroughly if people 
hadn't
> been busy mourning James and Lily...)

Ceridwen:
I'm not going from actual events.  In that light then, yes, Snape 
would be more akin to the prodigal.  What I am suggesting is, given 
Snape's apparent smugness (older brother) over his having obeyed the 
rules (or at least not gotten caught, evidenced by the incident cards 
in the detention, and his what seems to be constant nagging of Harry 
over his constant rule-breaking), that this is how Snape may see 
himself - doing what is proper and correct, not breaking the rules 
(at least at Hogwarts).  And, he seems to contrast himself and his 
following of the rules (the incident cards again) against both 
Harry's 'getting away with' things, and James & Co. breaking rules 
when they were in school.

And, I thought, from reading and discussion, that Snape 'returned' 
before the attack on GH?  So, his return was not marked by the 
Potters' deaths.

Sandy:
*(snip)*
> The Good Brother was painted as at fault for his lack of forbearance
> and his covetousness, IMO and recollection. While Snape may have had
> the same feelings, overall this strikes me as lacking resonance when
> applied to Snape. The Good Brother resented that following the 
rules,
> as he had been taught had value, didn't pay off with the sort of
> dividend his brother got for coming home after having caused the old
> man grief and suffering.

Ceridwen:
And, if Snape is seeing himself as the one who did follow the rules, 
he would find himself fitting into this mold.  IIRC, the older 
brother's lack of shared joy with his father, his petty wish that the 
prodigal would get his just desserts, his pouting and sulking, his 
general ill will and bad feelings, as you said, his lack of 
forebearance and his covetousness, were his sins and his shame.  I 
can see how he might feel betrayed over working 'thanklessly', even 
though he is reminded that he still has his inheritance, and he 
didn't ever have to come crawling for forgiveness for breaking the 
rules.

Sandy:
> If Snape was rubbing Harry's nose in his father and company's
> trespasses again with the intent of redundantly showing Harry how
> awful many of the people who have loved him were as adolescents, 
then
> I am contemptuous of him for it (and I just don't need any more
> reasons to hold Snape in contempt).

Ceridwen:
That's the only way I can read that detention.  The actual work Harry 
is doing is tedious, so is a suitable detention.  But, he finds that 
many of the cards in those years (that year?) belong to his father 
and Sirius.  I can't get away from the idea that Snape purposely 
chose that box for that reason.  Sorry to add fuel!

Sandy:
> The parable is meant to draw a parallel between the Prodigal Son and
> those children of God who fall away from observance of His laws. It 
is
> meant, in all the interpretations I'm aware of, to act as an
> illustration that God holds out a carrot, not a stick. That every
> soul, no matter the transgressions, is precious to God and that He
> aches to have each sinner repent and come home. (I was raised So.
> Baptist; can you tell? <veg>) The Elder Son is the part of the 
parable
> which warns off those who follow the rules from getting smug,
> self-congratulatory, envious and/or resentful or punitive (echoed in
> "forgive us our trespasses as we...") about those who don't. In that
> sense it works for me, for I can easily see all of those in Snape. 
But
> the idea that he would see himself as the "sinless" one makes me a
> little sick, actually.

That's how it played in Foursquare, too.  And the smug, self-
congratulatory, envious, resentful or punitive reactions do seem to 
strike me as being very Snape-like.  The whole analogy boils down to 
a pic of the prodigal being greeted by his father in the background, 
while the elder brother sits and broods on a wall in the foreground.  
I doubt if Snape sees himself as 'sinless' (oy, he's a fictional 
character, he doesn't see himself as anything at all!  but...).  I do 
think he sees himself as thanklessly above people who make 
spectacular blunders then turn around and get rewarded for their 
turning back to the Good Side.  I'm sure he knows his own mistakes.  
He probably notices every time he goes to the DE meetings.  But, 
there are people who just think that turning back to the Good Side 
shouldn't be celebrated like someone had been saved from certain 
death.  Someone mentioned Puritans.  That sort of joyless conviction 
that everyone else is wrong.

Sandy:
*(snip)*
> Snape is the only one properly to blame for the devaluation of his
> life once he joined the DE. The Snape who was warned off telling
> Lupin's secret was a pre-fall Snape, AFAWK, a very different
> individual, in spite of the fact that we have seen that even then he
> grasped after acclaim and respect by hunting up and pointing out
> others' shortcomings instead of exerting himself to excel and earn 
his
> laurels more honestly; perhaps he hasn't/hadn't the self-esteem to
> believe he can/could earn points honestly or any role models in his
> life to suggest the possibility.

Ceridwen:
Yes, Snape is the only one to blame for his joining the DEs.  A 
mistake, but a big one.  Being branded like a slave isn't the 
smartest thing he's ever done, but it may be the dumbest.  After the 
UV, though, I think there's a contender for the spot of dumbest thing.

And, pre-fall Snape was just Snape collecting enough anger to go off 
and be stupid.  IMO, he was already on his way to becoming a DE.  
Sirius said his gang was comprised of mainly people who became DEs, 
and that he had a fascination and talent for the Dark Arts from his 
first day at Hogwarts.  You may be right about his role models.  If 
his friends, who were probably older if we count Lucius Malfoy and 
Bellatrix Black Lestrange among them, were his only role models, then 
he didn't have anyone he liked or respected enough to counter their 
influence and his own interests.

Sandy: 
> I absolutely think that the series is going to conclude as follows:
> Harry = hero/protagonist
> Voldemort = antagonist
> Snape = anti-hero (heh, pretty literally...but *very* anti-
antagonist)

I tend to agree.  Snape will never like Harry.  And he probably 
already hates Voldemort.  Harry would be the lesser of the two evils 
to him, but I think he'll always keep a weather eye on Harry, just in 
case (if he survives book 7).

Sandy: 
> Snape eventually figured out he really did want to "do the right
> thing"--just this side of too late; he never had an accessible role
> model for "good" until after he'd gone "bad" and so was left with no
> choice but to spend the rest of his life backpedalling. (Now you 
have
> me thinking of Snape as prodigal, and it's working for me SO much
> better than the other way.)

Ceridwen:
When you look at what the prodigal actually did, then yes, that would 
work for me, too.  I was going on the attitude of the brother when 
the prodigal returned.  But, there's enough Ambiguous!Snape to spread 
around this parable!  And, it's so much fun! *g*

Sandy:
> The Order *could* protect James (although it failed before long)
> because James never went off and sold his soul to the bad guys! The
> Order protects Harry because its members have come to care for him 
and
> because he may be their last, best hope for victory, as well as
> because it's the right thing to do. Everything I remember says that
> Snape *volunteered* to turn spy in the wake of his sea change. There
> is no canon for anyone "throwing" him anywhere, and if that is how 
he
> feels, then he has yet one more symptom of lagging adolescence
> showing. 

Ceridwen:
I do think Snape's got a bad case of Nevergrewoutofit.  He certainly 
made his own bed, and now he's got to lie in it.  His value is in his 
role as spy first, then his potions and Dark Arts knowledge.  He 
placed himself in that position, therefore, he was the logical one to 
infiltrate.  That wouldn't stop him from feeling put-upon, at least 
some of the time.  And, since I agree with you that he never quite 
got over his adolescent grudges etc., to him it was just adding more 
on top.  No one cares about him or his life, he could be killed and 
they wouldn't care - a huge case of self-pity.  Which is never 
attractive (though we all get tempted at times) and never 
productive.  I'm suggesting only how it appears to me that he sees 
things, not the way they actually are.  Everyone notices how Harry 
makes mistakes based on faulty or incomplete evidence, I think Snape 
echoes that in his own mistaken beliefs on this subject.

You know, after I posted, I wondered if I'd made it clear that I was 
talking about how Snape may view things.  Reading it over, I realized 
I hadn't.

Sandy:
*(snip)*
> The only way this "Good Brother" thing works for me is if the last
> book makes it clear that Snape's initial decision to join the Death
> Eaters was part of an infiltration plan that far back. Not very
> likely, IMO.

Ceridwen:
I don't think it's likely, either, but you can never really tell with 
JKR until it's in writing.  I was surprised over a good part of HBP.  
It worked for me overall, but there were some things I didn't care 
for and was unpleasantly surprised to see.

And, again, Snape as the Good Brother only does work in the GB's 
feelings when the prodigal returns, not in the context of the whole 
story.  In that context, yes, he would more be the prodigal.  But, if 
he follows the pattern closely enough, that means his return was 
sincere.

Ceridwen, who is sorry for the misunderstandings!