Snape vs. James (was re: Prodigal Sons)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 140636

> Sherry:
> 
> We know that James and Lily defied the dark lord three times, so 
how can we
> say that *all* James did was to die dramatically?  We have no 
canon for the
> part the Potters played in the war.  We only know they were loved 
and
> respected and that they defied Voldemort three times.  i think 
James must
> have done a lot more than die dramatically trying to save his wife 
and son.

Magpie:

Oh yes, I assume he did.  I didn't mean to imply this was the 
objective reality of the situation.  I just meant I could easily see 
Snape, given the way he treats Harry, seeing James' actions as being 
given more glory than his own, and possibly seeing grandstanding in 
them as well.

Sherry:

> And on the subject of James being a bully, this question just 
occurred to me, though I don't know why it occurred just now.  How 
is it that people who defend Snape so vigorously can refuse to admit 
his terrible bullying of children for years, even giving him the 
excuse of toughening up the kids, and yet, they can dismiss James as 
a bully based on one scene from Snape's memory?

Magpie:

I admit...I don't know.:-)  I've never agreed with the view that 
seemed to come about after OotP that Snape was a lonely isolated kid 
who was picked on by James just for being there throughout his years 
at Hogwarts.  James does say to Lily that Snape's crime is "just 
that he exists," but I don't think that was meant to be the literal 
truth.  James is referring, imo, to all the things Snape does all 
the time, and fights they've had in the past.  As either Sirius or 
Lupin tells Harry when they talk about the scene, James really hated 
the Dark Arts.  I don't think James ever picked on weaker kids just 
because they were weaker (nor do I think Snape was always weaker--
he's caught at a disadvantage in this scene).  

I think the problems between James and Snape absolutely went both 
ways, and that if Harry had been at school with both of them he 
might have had far less trouble with the scene in the Pensieve.  In 
fact, I've always thought Draco was the unseen "fourth person" in 
the Pensieve scene.  He's the one who gives Harry the opening to see 
the memory, and when Harry is horrified at what his father did to 
Snape he immediately thinks the twins (whom he likes and considers 
just) would never do that to anyone "not unless they really hated 
them...or perhaps Malfoy, who really deserved it."  People often 
seemed quick to want to make the parallels clear in that scene--oh, 
James=Malfoy and Harry=Snape, but I don't think that's true either.  
There are reflections all over the place, but no exact doubles.  In 
both cases there's years of hate on both sides--and in fact, I think 
if we were reading the story of the MWPP era, Snape would be seen 
very much like Malfoy, if a different type of "toe-rag."  

Actually, one of the things I also liked in HBP were the hints of 
the totally different perspective the other side might have, like 
with Myrtle and Kreacher's loving descriptions of Malfoy, and Malfoy 
telling us about the Vanishing Cabinet from Montague's pov.  Harry 
defends Snape in the form of the HBP as a good guy and begins to see 
the other Slytherins more like other kids like himself. Before HBP I 
can't imagine Harry ever looking at Crabbe and Goyle without Malfoy 
and describing them as looking lonely.   

Personally, I've always never bought the "toughening up" idea with 
Snape's bullying.  It just reads to me like an elaborate way of 
turning a bad thing Snape does for reasons all having to do with 
himself into a good thing that's done in the service of others.  I 
just think it makes more sense canonically, and makes Snape more 
interesting to me, when he's lashing out at people for his own sake. 
I do think it's important to understand the motives of the bullies 
in canon, and sometimes those motives will inspire empathy or even 
sympathy, but to me that's different than something like this, which 
changes the nature of the act itself.  

Sherry:
> But, eventually, something happened to make James a hero, a 
fighter against
> Voldemort worthy of the love of the sainted Lily, while Snape 
became a
> bitter cruel man who gets his kicks out of bullying children.  I'd 
put my
> money on James Potter being the better man inside.

Magpie:
That seems to be the idea-I mean, canon seems to say this outright.  
Though it does raise some problems, because the fact is that James' 
bullying really did seem to be looked on with indulgence, and it's 
really hard to compare which is "the better man inside" because the 
circumstances, histories and personalities of the two men are so 
different to start with I think it's difficult to compare them that 
way.  Neither man's actions can be completely blamed on outside 
factors, but to me it just seems more interesting to say that here 
are these two men, in two situations, with two lives and they're 
both necessary to the story and interesting/fun/infuriating/valuable 
in their own way.  

-m