Snape vs. James (was re: Prodigal Sons)

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 140639

>SisterMagpie:
>
>...I thought Snape probably resented the fact that he did lots of
>dirty work and all James (and later Sirius) did was die dramatically
>and was remembered as a great hero, especially when James seemed like
>he could be a real jerk to Snape.

>Sherry now:
>
>We know that James and Lily defied the dark lord three times, so how
>can we say that *all* James did was to die dramatically?

Christina:

We're not saying it, but I'm sure that Snape does.  We know he harbors
a great resentment towards James.  We know that one of these sore
points is that Snape thinks that James was arrogant.  The good things
that James has done are well known.  It is the secretive nature of
Snape's double agent position that prevents any recognition of the
good things (or things that he personally sees as good) that he has
done.  I doubt Snape sees this as fair, which probably has only fueled
his hatred of James, and Harry as well, since Snape thinks that he is
just like his father.  Interestingly enough, a sentiment people seem
to agree with, if in different ways.

> Sherry:
> 
> > And on the subject of James being a bully, this question just 
> occurred to me, though I don't know why it occurred just now.  How 
> is it that people who defend Snape so vigorously can refuse to admit 
> his terrible bullying of children for years, even giving him the 
> excuse of toughening up the kids, and yet, they can dismiss James as 
> a bully based on one scene from Snape's memory?
> 

Christina:

I'll be the first to admit that Snape can be a big, giant bully.  It's
in the books- it's pretty impossible to deny.  The problem is, while
we have completely canon evidence that *both* James and Snape were
bullies at one point or another, the HP universe treats them
completely differently.  Snape is actively disliked (Harry, Sirius) or
tolerated (Hermione, Lupin), while James is *revered* (by every single
character that knew him, except for Snape of course).  Now I'll be the
first to say that James's defeat of the Dark Lord three times *is*
heroic, and he obviously grew out of his bullying stage since Lily
decided to marry him and Dumbledore made him Head Boy (Snape must have
been *livid*), but I don't think that anyone is "dismissing James as a
bully."  This wasn't just one scene.  Lupin and Sirius's conversation
strongly suggests (if it doesn't outright say) that James's (and
Sirius's too) bullying of Snape was *habitual*.  Lupin says straight
out that by 7th year, James had stopped "hexing people just for the
fun of it," which suggests that Snape wasn't his only target.


>Sherry:
>But one scene doesn't cut it for
>me. Even the words of Lupin and Sirius seem to indicate that the
>problems between Snape and James were ongoing and reciprocal. 


Christina:

I agree that Snape probably sent back his share of curses, but I still
think that *back then*, James was worse.  First of all, we know that
at least once, James initiated hostilities between himself and Snape
(unlike Harry, who usually waits until Malfoy has said or done
something bad to go after him).  When Harry points out that his father
went after Snape for "no good reason," Sirius says that he wasn't
proud of his actions.  That gives me the impression that James's
picking on Snape was a common thing.  I think it's pretty clear from
the pensieve scene that Snape isn't too well-liked (Harry notices this
too), and James's bullying method of choice (this time at least) makes
it, in my opinion, especially awful.

Of course, James grew out of his little bullying streak (mostly, at
least), while Snape grew up to be a bitter adult who picks on
children.  I don't think many people on this list would go as far as
to say that Snape's bullying is great while James's was
Oh-So-Horrible.  I know I wouldn't.  I think what you're seeing is
more of a knee-jerk reaction, a "Huh?" sort of moment when those of us
that think that Snape is still good (or was good at one point) realize
that James is treated as a Man-God in Potterville, while everyone
seems to hate Snape.  It just doesn't seem right.  However, since JKR
could literally do practically anything with Snape's character at this
point, speculation about the meaning and severity of James's and
Snape's bullying is sort of futile (but fun!).


Christina