Straightforward readings? (was Re: Truth vs. what meets Harry's eye )

[ellecain]

No: HPFGUIDX 140697

Elyse here, who has never posted three times for fear of 
the list elves' powerful brand of magic i.e. throwing me off the 
list.

I'm actually having misgivings about poking my nose into this 
discussion, because there are so many possible readings that would
be considered as straightforward by different people. So before 
getting into this, I'd just like to say this is my opinion only,
and everyone is at perfect liberty to disregard it completely.

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
> <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> > 
> > If one saw just that scene, I would agree.  If one were Harry, I 
> > would agree.  But with 6 books of history & evidence *coupled* 
with a 
> > lack of knowledge of what Snape was thinking or feeling or what 
> > condition DD was actually in or what/if anything passed between 
those 
> > two men, and adding in Snape's behavior on the grounds 
afterwards, I 
> > think it can still be a pretty straightforward read to believe 
in DDM!
> > Snape.

 
> Lupinlore wrote
> 
> Well, it's POSSIBLE to read that, Susan.  But straightforward?  
IMO, it 
> assumes far too many facts not in evidence to be straightforward.  
Of 
> course, any theory assumes a lot of facts not in evidence at this 
point.

Elyse: Actually to believe in DD'sMan!Snape, the only thing to be 
assumed is the Legilimency conversation on the tower.
I can personally believe that DD is well and truly dead, the AK was 
a real one, and that DD and Snape had not planned at all for such a
situation.
I think that it was a totally unexpected and incredibly tight place 
they found themselves in. So the obvious question was what they were 
going to do now?

I'm not going into all the details of what would have happened if
Snape tried to save DD, just an overview: 
Pessimistic view :Snape falling down dead due to UV, DD killed,
Malfoy punished, Harry dead, Fenrir feasting on Hogwarts students 
etc. 
Optimistic view: DD,Snape,Harry all alive, certain DE's dead,Malfoy 
family in hiding,Snape's cover blown hence hiding at 12GP like 
Sirius etc.
So if these situations were analysed by DD and Snape and they came 
to a mutual agreement where the best one requires DD's sacrifice,
a Legilimency conversation is all that is required for DD'sMan!Snape.

Lupinlore:
> Personally, I think that any of the scenarios commonly trotted out 
for 
> DDM!Snape (a legilemency conversation on the tower, a plot between 
DD 
> and Snape beforehand, DD not really dead, the AK a fake), would be 
> unbelievable, incredibly contrived, and extraordinarily poor 
writing.  

Elyse: You might not believe this, but I sort of agree with you.
After having written about a possible Legilimency conversation.
I must admit that it is incredibly contrived. I dont even believe it 
is possible to converse in Legilimency! There is no canon to provide 
evidence that it can be done.
However, JKR has surprised us before, and she may yet be able to 
pull it off in a way nobody expects. I have hope that she will do 
just that. 

Lupinlore:
> Having said that, I can't come up with many scenarios on the other 
> sides that aren't also contrived and unbelievable, although none 
so 
> much so as DDM!Snape.  JKR has written herself into a corner with 
this 
> one, and I really don't believe she understood quite what a corner 
she 
> was in until HBP hit the shelves (at least judging by some of her 
> reactions in the three part interview).  She has gotten herself 
into 
> corners before (OOTP for example) and in order to extricate 
herself had 
> to do a LOT of handwaving and sweeping of things under rugs, along 
with 
> a couple of subtle canon rewrites (i.e. she essentially swept away 
DD's 
> speech at the end of OOTP and gave him another one early in HBP).  
I'm 
> afraid, regardless of what happens with Snape, that more of the 
same is 
> on the horizon.

Elyse again:
You know, Lupinlore, that you are reiterating the same points you 
made in your first post after HBP?
I was sifting through the early reactions yesterday and I found 
yours - number 132936

And I was surprised to find you saying:
> I thought the whole thing with Snape was well-done but 
> extraordinarily manipulative. She essentially showed us something 
> while banging us over the head almost every chapter with reasons 
why 
> we shouldn't take what we see at face value -- which itself raises 
> suspicions that maybe we should do just that. I am, once again, 
> almost totally bemused.

Elyse: 
Which perhaps means that in your first reading of HBP, you looked 
for the little clues and red herrings that keep us confused?
Which would not make your reading very "straightforward" at all? ;)
(I could be wrong of course, it was my interpretation of your post)

You seem to be saying that the straightforward reading of Snape, has 
many clues of why we shouldnt take what we see at face value.
It kinda looks like your agreeing with Susan there!

And IMHO it seems really bad writing  to lay out such a complicated 
scene like Snape killing DD, and then clues that this might not be 
exactly what happened, there might be more beneath the surface; just 
for mind games about reader expectation and misdirection.

JKR who has never been concerned about what fans think pre-HBP, has 
really, 
as you put it, written herelf into a corner.
If she wants to show us ESE!Snape now, it will take a lot of 
"handwaving and sweeping under rugs" of the pro DD'sMan!Snape
clues she herself laid out.

Hope this post made sense.
Just my opinion,
Elyse