Straightforward readings? /Harry needs to get over Snape?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 140731

> Carol responds:
> To me, the straightforward reading is that Snape regretted having 
told
> Voldemort the Prophecy, *returned* to "our side" and began spying 
for
> Dumbledore "at great personal risk" (GoF) at least several months
> before Voldemort's fall since he began teaching Potions two months
> before Godric's Hollow, 


Alla:

Hmmm, are we always believing what Snape says then? Because if we do 
then THIS is also straight from the books.

"You ask where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he 
ordered  me to be , at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, 
because he wished me to spy upon Albus Dumbledore. You know, I 
presume that it was on Dark Lord's Orders  that I took upon  the 
post?' - HBP, p.26


Carol:
<snip>
attempted to tell James that Sirius was a spy
> but was "arrogantly" rebuffed (PoA--the fact that he was wrong 
about
> *who* the spy was is immaterial here),

Alla:

Do we know that for a FACT? I am very curious now. I remember Snape 
raving to Harry that he is just as arrogant as his father, because 
he did not listen to him, but I don't remember the canon for Snape 
flat out saying that he warned James about who spy was? Could you 
refer me to relevant quote, please?



Carol:
 and expressed remorse when the
> Potters died (HBP). 

Alla:

Yep,  " And you overlook Dumbledore's greatest weakness; He has to 
believe  the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse 
when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he 
embraced me with open arms - though, as I say, never allowing me 
nearer the Dark Arts than he could help" - HBP, p.31.

You know, dear Severus is pretty convincing to me , explaining away 
all his good deeds.




Carol:
Moreover, actions in
> the HP books have unintended consequences--Snape's revelation of 
the
> Prophecy does lead (despite his remorse) to Harry's becoming an
> orphan, but it also leads to Voldemort's vaporization, giving the 
WW a
> respite from Voldemort for nearly fourteen years (from GH to the
> restoration of LV's body at the end of GoF). Not that Snape 
deserves
> credit, only that if it weren't for his action, LV1 would not have 
ended.



Alla:

Indeed, actions in Potterverse DO have unexpected consequences, as 
Dumbledore tells Harry in PoA that Peter;s life debt may come in 
handy ( paraphrase). I am just not sure how it excuses Snape.





Carol: 
> As for bullying children, Snape's sarcasm is mild compared with the
> physical harm that other characters have inflicted on Harry (the
> Dursleys locking him in his room with bars on the window and only 
cold
> soup to eat, Voldemort and Crouch!Moody Crucioing him and trying to
> kill him, Umbridge trying to Crucio him and making him write lines 
in
> his own blood). As JKR and Dumbledore seem to think, kids need to
> learn to deal with sarcasm and dislike on the part of their 
superiors,
> and (IMO) Harry needs to just get over it. 

Alla:

Oh, I don't know about mild sarcasm, if when Harry goes to occlumency
lessons he is afraid to be alone with Snape.

If Harry just needs to get over it, would you agree that Snape also
needs to get over what James and Sirius did to him , like LONG time
ago, especially considering the fact that both of those mena are dead
now?

And JKR does not seem to think that kids need to learn how to deal
with bullying, IMo.

She said that Dumbledore keeps Snape for life lessons. What kind of
lessons they are is widely open to interpretation, IMO.

Not be like Snape, maybe?


Now, if you are to tell me that Harry needs to forgive Snape and 
move on, I have to agree reluctantly, but I absolutely disagree that 
Harry needs to get over him. Since I am pretty convinced that Harry 
WILL forgive Snape, I keep hoping that Harry will be allowed to let 
on as much steam about Snape, as he desires.

Because contrary to Sirius Black, Snape KNEW (IMO) that telling 
prophecy  to Voldie would bring death on some unknown couple. If  
their names were Potters, that to me makes Snape complcit and 
intentionally complicit at that.



Carol:
> Snape not only saved Harry from Quirrell's curse in SS/PS 
(Hermione's
> interference notwithstanding) and later refereed a Quidditch game 
to
> keep it from happening again, 

Alla:

Yep, and that is the only unquestionably GOOD action which I can 
credit Snape with towards Harry. But even  this one he manages to 
explain away nicely, no?



Carol:
<snip>
he tried to save HRH from a werewolf and
> a man he believed to be a murderer in PoA (he conjured stretchers 
and
> brought them all to safety after he regained consciousness),

Alla:

OR  he went to get his revenge on Sirius and Lupin and in between 
decided that revenge is best served the legal way. Of course it 
won't do for him to keep kids dead. Have you noticed how he keeps 
then from telling the truth about Peter? Confunded.... Right. :-0



Carol:
<snip>
 If he had not sent
> the Order to the MoM, Harry and all his friends would be dead. 

Alla: 

I think Neri argues about it much better than I am.


Carol:
<SNIP>
Surely
> all of this makes up for insensitive remarks about Hermione's 
teeth or
> using Trevor (whom he knew would not be poisoned) to test Neville's
> antidote or giving Harry zeroes for spilled potion. Or if it 
doesn't,
> it's the reader's personal feelings and educational philosophy 
(one to
> which Snape himself has never been exposed), not the text itself, 
that
> shapes a desire for punishment. 

Alla:

No, actually, it does not make up for his everyday bullying at all, 
IMO. Especially in light that ALL of the actions you cited could be 
easily committed OFH!Snape ( and again he manages to explain  them 
away REALLY well in Spinners' end, does not he?)


Carol:
<snip>
And of course controlling his
> hatred and not using Dark magic is essential to his victory over 
LV,
> but Harry doesn't want to hear it because it comes from Snape.)

Alla:

Hatred - YES, controlling emotions - I am ready to bet that - NO,
contrary to what Snape thinks and says.

"It is your heart that saved you", no? So, I don't think that
any of Snape advice, if it WAS advice would come handy for Harry.


JMO of course,

Alla.