Straightforward readings? /Harry needs to get over Snape?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 140736

Carol earlier:
> > To me, the straightforward reading is that Snape regretted having 
> told Voldemort the Prophecy, *returned* to "our side" and began
spying for Dumbledore "at great personal risk" (GoF) at least several
months before Voldemort's fall since he began teaching Potions two
months before Godric's Hollow, 
> 
Alla responded:
> 
> Hmmm, are we always believing what Snape says then? Because if we do 
> then THIS is also straight from the books.
> 
> "You ask where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he 
> ordered  me to be , at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, 
> because he wished me to spy upon Albus Dumbledore. You know, I 
> presume that it was on Dark Lord's Orders  that I took upon  the 
> post?' - HBP, p.26

Carol again:
The words in GoF are Dumbledore's, not Snape's. There's no reason not
to believe them that I can see. And Snape's words in HBP are to
Bellatrix, whom he has to convince of his loyalty to Voldemort.
Earlier (in OoP) he speaks of being able to conceal a lie from
Voldemort. If he can do that, he can easily conceal the same lies from
Bellatrix.
> 
> 
Carol earlier:
> <snip>
> [Snape] attempted to tell James that Sirius was a spy but was
"arrogantly" rebuffed (PoA--the fact that he was wrong about *who* the
spy was is immaterial here),
> 
> Alla:
> Do we know that for a FACT? I am very curious now. I remember Snape 
> raving to Harry that he is just as arrogant as his father, because 
> he did not listen to him, but I don't remember the canon for Snape 
> flat out saying that he warned James about who spy was? Could you 
> refer me to relevant quote, please?

Carol:
It's in PoA:
"Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck, and you
should be thanking me on bended knee! You'd have died like your
father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black" (Am.
ed. 361). I take that to mean that Snape tried to convince James that
Sirius was a spy or traitor and was scornfully ignored (and now, of
course, he thinks Black is a murderer). I could be wrong in that
interpretation. But we still have his *return* to Dumbledore, first
spying and then teaching, before Godric's Hollow.
 
> Carol earlier:
>  [Snape] expressed remorse when the Potters died (HBP). 
> 
> Alla:
> Yep,  " And you overlook Dumbledore's greatest weakness; He has to
believe  the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse 
when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he 
embraced me with open arms - though, as I say, never allowing me
nearer the Dark Arts than he could help" - HBP, p.31.
> 
> You know, dear Severus is pretty convincing to me , explaining away
all his good deeds.

Carol responds:
Again, you have Snape speaking to Bellatrix spinning a tale to *her*.
 There's no reason for the reader to assume that it's true, given his
double agent role, but it's very important that *Bellatrix* believe it. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Indeed, actions in Potterverse DO have unexpected consequences, as
Dumbledore tells Harry in PoA that Peter;s life debt may come in handy
( paraphrase). I am just not sure how it excuses Snape.

Carol responds:
I didn't say that it did, only that his actions (and Voldemort's) had
a very important consequence that they didn't intend. If Snape hadn't
told Voldemort about the Prophecy, there would be no Chosen One to
destroy Voldemort. (No credit to Snape, as I said before, but Godric's
Hollow is a felix culpa, a fortunate fault--good coming out of evil.)
But Snape, unlike Voldemort (and Peter Pettigrew, whose role more
clearly parallels his), may have sincerely repented. Dumbledore
believes he did, and I trust Dumbledore's judgment over Snape's words
to Bellatrix (lying is part of his job and necessary to his safety) or
Draco's judgment of either man (one loyal to Voldemort and the other a
"stupid old man").
 
> 
> Alla:
> Oh, I don't know about mild sarcasm, if when Harry goes to
occlumency lessons he is afraid to be alone with Snape.

Carol responds:
But the fear isn't justified, is it? Snape takes out his wand, but he
uses it to take thoughts from his own head and then to cast a
Legilimency spell--after warning Harry that it's coming and telling
him to defend himself in any way he can. As for Snape's rage after the
Pensieve scene, all he does is push Harry away and explode a jar of
cockroaches (which Harry after the fact thinks that Snape threw).
Snape could have turned him into a bouncing ferret or used any number
of spells on him, but he just orders him out--pretty much what an
irate Muggle would do. Other than that incident, Snape is remarkably
calm and even praises Harry. Again, the fear is unjustified. Nor has
snape ever harmed Harry during any of his various detentions.
> 

Alla:
> If Harry just needs to get over it, would you agree that Snape also
needs to get over what James and Sirius did to him , like LONG time
ago, especially considering the fact that both of those mena are dead now?

Carol responds:
Yes, of course. The problem is, he doesn't seem to know how, and
Harry's continual disregard for the rules reminds him of James, making
matters worse.
> 
Alla:
> And JKR does not seem to think that kids need to learn how to deal
> with bullying, IMo.

> She said that Dumbledore keeps Snape for life lessons. What kind of
> lessons they are is widely open to interpretation, IMO.
> 
> Not be like Snape, maybe?

Carol:
I think we're thinking of the same quote, in which she says that
"horrible teachers" are one of the lessons DD wants the students to
learn. I think that coping with bullying is one of those lessons
(especially as preparation for dealing with the geatest bully of all,
Voldemort). Pampering the kids and making them believe that they're
special (modern Muggle education) would be much less helpful, IMO,
especially in Harry's case. But not being like Snape could be another
lesson that DD wants them to learn. If so, Harry's on the wrong path,
with his desire for revenge and his repeated attempts to cast a
Crucio. If he's not going to become Snape, he'd better take Snape's
advice and stay away from the Dark Arts.
> 
> 
Alla: 
> Now, if you are to tell me that Harry needs to forgive Snape and
move on, I have to agree reluctantly, but I absolutely disagree that
Harry needs to get over him. Since I am pretty convinced that Harry
WILL forgive Snape, I keep hoping that Harry will be allowed to let 
> on as much steam about Snape, as he desires.

Carol:
I don't see the difference between "moving on" and "getting over him,"
but I certainly believe that he needs to forgive Snape. 
> 
Alla:
> Because contrary to Sirius Black, Snape KNEW (IMO) that telling
prophecy  to Voldie would bring death on some unknown couple. If their
names were Potters, that to me makes Snape complcit and intentionally
complicit at that.

Carol:
I understand why you would think that, but the Prophecy is probably
clearer to us than it was to young Snape. He heard part of a Prophecy,
delivered in an uncanny voice, and probably ran off to report to his
then master what he had heard. Only when he saw how Voldemort
interpreted it--as an immediate threat--and realized that he intended
to identify and attack an as yet unborn infant would Snape have
started to regret his actions. And when Voldemort discovered the
identity of one or both Prophecy boys and began attacking their
parents (which is how I interpret "defied Voldemort three times),
Snape went to Dumbledore, confessed what he had done, and asked for
help. At that point, he became a spy "at great personal risk," which
he surely would not have done had he not been genuinely repentant. But
the full measure of remorse was yet to come, when he had (IMO) done
everything in his power to prevent the Potters' deaths and failed.
(And he would have hated James for dying without allowing him to repay
the life debt, complicating his emotions still further.)
> 
> Carol earlier:
> > Snape not only saved Harry from Quirrell's curse in SS/PS
(Hermione's interference notwithstanding) and later refereed a
Quidditch game to keep it from happening again, 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yep, and that is the only unqutionably GOOD action which I can
credit Snape with towards Harry. But even  this one he manages to
explain away nicely, no?

Carol:
Yes, that's the point. He explains his good actions away in a way that
will make them acceptable to Bellatrix (and, earlier, to LV). But that
doesn't mean he's telling her the full or true story. I don't believe
him when he says that he didn't think Voldemort would return or that
he didn't know that Quirrell was working for Voldemort ("Where your
loyalties lie" makes no sense unless it means Dumbledore or
Voldemort). Being a Legilimens, he may even have known that LV was
inside Quirrell's head. But he's not going to say that to Bellatrix,
is he?
> 
> 
> 
> Carol:
> <snip>
> he tried to save HRH from a werewolf and a man he believed to be a
murderer in PoA (he conjured stretchers and
> > brought them all to safety after he regained consciousness),
> 
> Alla:
> 
> OR  he went to get his revenge on Sirius and Lupin and in between
decided that revenge is best served the legal way. Of course it won't
do for him to keep kids dead. Have you noticed how he keeps then from
telling the truth about Peter? Confunded.... Right. :-0

Carol:
The "confunded" lie keeps them from being expelled. And he doesn't
know the truth about Peter. He overhears only part of the conversation
between Lupin and HRH, the part about Lupin being a werewolf helped by
his animagus friends at school, but he doesn't see Scabbers turned
into Wormtail. Scabbers is long gone when he wakes up and transports
all the others to the school on conjured stretchers. Which is not to
say that he didn't want revenge on Sirius for (in his view) attempting
to murder him.
> 
 
> Carol:
> <snip>  If he had not sent the Order to the MoM, Harry and all his
friends would be dead. 
> 
> Alla:  
> I think Neri argues about it much better than I am.

Carol:
Yes, I know Neri's arguments about the time frame. But they're not
canon, and Snape sending the Order members and telling Sirius to stay
behind is. I repeat, if he hadn't sent them, Harry and his friends
would be dead. That is the straightforward reading.

Carol