Bullying and Snape/ Snape and Regulus/OFH!Snape (LONG)

Tue Sep 27 02:46:27 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 140782

> zgirnius:
<snip>
>> If there were some excellent reasons for James to dislike Snape,
> wouldn't it have made sense to bring it up here? But no, the 
reasons
> they give boil down to, James and Sirius were young and arrogant...
> 
> 
> vmonte:
> No, I don't think that they would have mentioned that Snape was a 
> bully to Harry. JKR has a way of never letting her characters ask 
> questions when she doesn't want her readers to have the 
information 
> yet. But based on the bully that Snape is now, and the fact that 
he 
> belonged to a club of bullys while he was a DE, I'm sure that he 
was 
> one as a teenager too. 

Alla:

I completely agree with you, Vivian that JKR would not have told us 
for plot related reasons that Snape was a bully too, even if he was.

But she already dropped some hints in OOP and MUCH more heavier 
hints  in HBP, IMO about Young!Snape being a bully too. (I am saying 
Young Snape, because TO ME   the question whether Snape is a bully 
now has a very clear answer)

Young Snape is a racist, that is quite clear, right? I am not 
arguing whether he is one now, but  he definitely WAS one.

Granted, other than throwing a little racial slur at Lily, Snape 
looks sympathetic in Pensieve scene, while James and Sirius 
definitely not.

But I absolutely reserved my judgment on the true nature of the 
relationship between Marauders and Snape based on ONE flashback and 
incomplete at that.

I actually still am reserving my judgment, but I think JKR already 
started to turn the tables quite nicely at Snape. And I am not even 
talking  Snape of these days, I am only talking about teenager Snape.

So, young Snape goes around inventing Levicorpus, Sectusemptra and 
probably other not very nice spells.

According to Lupin "Levicorpus" at some point had been used by half 
of Hogwarts ( paraphrase) While I am not sure whther this spell can 
be definitely classified as dark, it definitely can be used with 
unpleasant consequences for the victim. And we all saw what 
Sectusemptra can do. I think it is a reasonable assumption to make 
that some Hogwarts students also learned Sectusemptra (probably from 
seeing Snape use it?) I am wondering if Hogwarts students knew who 
was inventing these spells, is that such a  wonder that Snape was 
not universally liked?

Vmonte: 
> I'm starting to think that Snape had something to do with 
recruiting 
> Regulus into that nasty group of kids that later turned out to 
become 
> DEs. If true, I wouldn't blame Sirius for loathing Snape forever. 
Even 
> if ultimately it was Regulus's fault for joining in the first 
place.
> 

Alla:

Oh, this is one of the possible reasons, Vivian, I agree, but here 
is what I am speculating.

We will eventually learn that either for that reason or another one 
what really took place in Pensieve scene was not just bullying, but 
also some sort of revenge - for something that took place earlier.

Maybe for something which Snape did together with his pals from 
Slytherin gang. I think that Sirius' " Malfoy lapdog" will come back 
with  the deeper meaning than just Sirius' taunt in OOP. After all, 
we saw in HBP how far Snape is willing to go for Malfoy family.

> Potioncat:
<SNIP>
> Now, let's compare Regulus and Severus. I get the feeling that you 
feel 
> sorry for ickle Reggie. Some big bad DE recruited him; he came in, 
> making his Moma proud; then found out what it was all about; 
changed 
> his mind; and was killed. OK, I feel for him too.

Alla:

Well, yes, that is a pretty accurate factual description of what 
happened to Regulus, I agree. I pitied him prior to HBP, but not 
much, really.

But now when it is confirmed who RAB is we know that Regulus did 
more than that. He openly defied Voldemort, knowing that he is going 
to die. He behaved contrary to Slytherin nature. You know, I 
actually respect Regulus now. I don't think that we can now be 
hundred percent sure that Snape ever behaved contrary to Slytherin 
nature. I mean, it is a possibility of course, but TO ME, not a fact.

Yes, I remember Dumbledore's "at great risk to himself", but I am 
not sure if Albus got it right after all.

Potioncat: 
> I feel sorry for ickle Sevvie. Some big bad DE recruited him; he 
came 
> in; then found out what it was all about and who was going to get 
hurt 
> so changed his mind; and began working against the DEs. 

Alla:

Well, if THIS is indeed what happened, then I will feel sorry for 
him too. ;)

Potioncat:
> I'll accept your disagreement if you believe Snape is either ESE 
or 
> OFH. But we cannot really know what motivated Regulus either. 
> Personally, I think cousins Bella, Narcissa or Lucius are as 
likely a 
> source of recruitment as Severus.

Alla:

Sure, we don't know for sure what motivated Regulus to join. It 
seems to me that while cousins Bella, Narcissa  and Lucius ARE 
likely source of recruitment, they are even far apart in age from 
Regulus than Severus was and are less likely to pay any attention to 
him.

I think it is interesting that they all are members of the Slytherin 
gang. I just speculate about it of course, but I think it is 
possible that they recruited Severus and  then Severus recruited 
Regulus.

Just speculating here of course.

Betsy HP

> Third, if as you postulate, Alla, Snape decided to flip to 
> Voldemort's side after the end of PoA, why does he leave Vapor!
Mort 
> languishing in Europe?  Why does he leave Peter to collect all the 
> glory of being devoted enough to search Voldemort out, and himself 
in 
> a rather precarious position requiring some mighty fast tap-
dancing 
> once Voldemort reveals himself returned to his little flock at the 
> end of GoF?

Alla:

My post is getting too long, so I will only answer this part of 
yours and if nobody answers, I may answer tomorrow.

I was not being clear, sorry. I don't think that Snape FULLY decides 
to flip Voldemort's side in PoA.
If Snape is OFH, I believe that PoA, or more like end of PoA was his 
STARTING point of resentment of Dumbledore.

So, I don't think he is that concerned  with going to look for 
Voldemort quite yet.

I think he still may have been doing stuff for Dumbledore in GoF, 
then delivering equally important information to both sides in OOP ( 
like doing stuff for the Order and delivering information which got 
Sirius killed and you know, Emellyne Vance).

I think Snape may have CHOSE in HBP, or maybe he still did not truly 
chosen and just concerned with staying alive.

Betsy Hp:
> To my mind (for what it's worth <g>) the most straightforward read 
of 
> Snape's character, the one with the least plot holes, is DDM!Snape.
> 

Alla:

I can see several Snapes, so to speak. Evil Snape, who is Voldemort 
servant, OFH!Snape who just wants to live, Sort of good!Snape who 
genunely thought that he has no other choice but to kill Dumbledore 
in order to help good guys, because he feels that he is very 
valuable to good guys and he has to stay alive to that.

But I don't think that I ever be able to see the same sort of DDM!
Snape you see - because in my reading, even if Snape is good, he had 
to realise that even if he thought that he had no other choice, but 
to kill Dumbledore, there is always a choice, even if this choice 
means Snape being dead.

What I am trying to say is that I absolutely do not see DDM!Snape 
who will be praised at the end for killing Dumbledore on 
Dumbledore's orders or something like that.
In my mind, if Snape is good,  he will be VERY remorseful for what 
he had done, even if Dumbledore's death will have an unexpected 
consequence of helping  the Light.

> 
> Sherry now:

<SNIP>
> Same with that vow.  If Snape didn't know what
> Draco's assignment was, then he was an idiot to have agreed to 
it.  If he
> did know, then he is no more DDM than my dog is! 
<SNIP>
> So, to my mind, the most straight forward reading of the 
unbreakable vow
> fiasco is that Snape is either a fool or evil.  

Alla:

OK, at the end of my very LONG post I think I am allowed to say YES, 
Sherry, me too, me too, me too. :-)

If Snape is a good guy( he does not know the task), he is the 
complete fool for agreeing to give the Voldemort" blank check" with 
his signature on it ( Love that expression of Dan's) and if he knows 
the task, then he is ... well, then he is signing a contract for a 
murder, IMO.

Just my opinion of course,

Alla