Bullying/Snape and Neville

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 140877

Carol earlier:
> > The claim that most potion ingredients are plants or plant parts
can't really be supported, either. 
<snip>
> So Potions is clearly much more than an extension of Herbology, and
a green thumb is no help if you don't have a scientific mind. Snape
has both an appreciation of precision and, as we find out in HBP, a
knack for experimentation. Neville, it would appear, has neither, and
is also nervous, forgetful, and clumsy, which is why Snape finds him
so annoying. <snip>
> 
> Alla responded: 
> That is only one Potion, Carol and I did not say that they don't
have other ingredients. 

Carol again:
I know you didn't, but the point that Potions is not applied Herbology
is important, so I'll cite a few more examples. How about
Wit-Sharpening Potion, whose ingredients are ground scarab beetle,
cut-up ginger root, and armadillo bile? One ingredient out of three is
a plant part. And you snipped my second example, the Draught of Peace,
which uses a moonstone in combination with the plant hellebore.
Knowing how to grow and harvest hellebore (or where to find a
moonstone) doesn't help you to prepare the potion. The Elixir of Life
is made from the Philosopher's Stone: no plant ingredients involved.
Other non-plant potion ingredients include Acromantula venom,
Ashwinder eggs, beetle eyes, caterpillars, powdered unicorn (and
bicorn) horn, dragon's blood, frog spawn, possibly Phoenix tears--I
could go on, but I think you get the idea.

My point is that Herbology would familiarize a student with only about
one third or at best one half of the potion ingredients (or at least
the plants they come from), and with a general idea of the care and
uses of these plants rather than how to use them in preparing the
potions, which is of course the Potions master's job. (It's like
saying that Care of Magical Creatures helps a student succeed in
Potions because unicorn hair and Acromantula venom are sometimes used
as potion ingredients. What the students actually learn is how to feed
a Flobberworm, how to keep a hippogryff from attacking you, and why
some people can't see Thestrals.) How is knowing how to uproot a
Mandrake or pop open a Bubotuber pod going to help a student prepare a
potion that uses those ingredients? Although I would guess that young
Snape excelled at Herbology just because he was driven to excel at
most of his subjects, success in one doesn't *necessarily* equate to
success in  the other, any more than success in Charms guarantees
success in Transfiguration (Neville again) even though both subjects
involve the use of a wand. 

Alla wrote:
> But I absolutely disagree that you don't need to have a scientific
mind in Biology.

Carol responds:
Oops, Alla. You're crediting me with your own analogy. I never
compared Herbology with Biology (or more specifically, Botany, which
deals exclusively with plants). That's *your* analogy. And I never
said that you don't need a scientific mind for Biology. Of course you
do. I said that a wizard doesn't need a scientific for *Herbology*,
any more than he needs one for COMC, the WW's closest equivalent to
the other main branch of Biology, Zoology. (Surely Hagrid doesn't have
a scientific mind though his substitute Professor Grubbly-Plank did at
least make the students draw pictures of Bowtruckles, an approach that
comes a bit closer to a high school Biology teacher's. I haven't seen
any sign of a scientific mind in Professor Sprout, either, but
admittedly we don't see much of her.)

To get back on topic, a knowledge of Botany (or Zoology) doesn't help
a chemist (American sense of the term) to use plant (or animal)
ingredients to create Muggle "potions" such as cough medicine or
shampoo. They're two completely separate fields. And knowing how to
grow and cultivate the plants that end up as ingredients in cough
medicine or shampoo is even less helpful in creating the product itself.

Alla wrote:
> As I said , I did not like it [Biology] much in school, but I sure
thought that people who excelled in it had as you put it " apreciation
for precision" and "knack for experimentation". In Herbology they
often deal with dangerous, poisonous plants and Neville does a superb
job of taking care of it. I am sure to cultivate some plants, you have
to be very precise in taking care of them.

Carol responds:
But that's still gardening, or Horticulture if you prefer, not Biology
(Botany). You seem to be assuming that I made the Herbology/Biology
analogy, which is actually your own, or that I agree with it, which I
don't. Look at what the students actually do in Herbology lessons.
They're either transplanting seedlings, picking pods, or extracting
some sort of essence. They learn how to defend themselves against
attack by the plant and a general idea of its uses (e.g., that murtlap
essence soothes wounds), but they never examine the plant parts under
a microscope or discuss the relationship of one plant to another as a
Muggle Biology student would. 

Anyway, I know you didn't mean to put words in my mouth, but I do wish
you had read my argument a little more carefully. Again, I see no
evidence that skill in Herbology leads to skill in Potions or vice
versa, and Neville seems to be exactly the person to prove the point.

Carol