OFH! Snape again. WAS: Straightforward readings?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 140881

> Jen: 
> That comment & the entire moment still bother me from a 
> narrative perspective (I think that's the right term). Other people 
> have mentioned how the howling dog in the background was meant to 
> bring up Padfoot, and I guess Snape's betrayl of Sirius? But I read 
> that moment as *Snape* being compared to the howling dog in pain and 
> found it poignant. Anyone have a thought on this? 

Valky:
Yes I do have a thought on this. I think the poignancy that we are
both seeing here is that all three are trapped unable to prevent the
destruction going on around them. Fang is trapped in his beloved home
as it is being destroyed, unable to prevent it or save himself, Sirius
is trapped in his home as the Wizard World he loves is destroyed, also
unable to prevent it or save himself, Snape I think, is similarly
trapped as the things he has loved are destroyed around him. It goes
strongly to a DD's Man Snape that there is an allusion IMO because all
three of the characters linked by the analogy have now been called
cowards. Fang, always labelled the cowardly big dog, Sirius was goaded
by Snape about being a coward when he was confined to GP, and now
Harry is calling Snape a coward his reaction is the same as Sirius'
one and Fangs one in Hagrids burning hut. It hurts, he's trapped, and
theres nothing he can do about it.

It's easy to see that I draw a lot from this line in HBP. But the
poignancy of it is undeniable, it alludes to Snape in pain through
things that are beyond his control, something he would prevent if he
could just get out of his shackles. What more needs to be said about
that, except to ponder what *really* happened on the Astronomy Tower.

> houyhnhnm: 
> > The real test for Snape would have come when Dumbledore arrived
> > back at the castle, poisoned, with no successful Draco plot, no
> > DE's in the castle.  Would Snape have tried to save Dumbledore's
> > life or not? We'll never know and neither will Snape.  Hence
> > the "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!"

Valky:
I have read this point of view many times on the list. I think it can
be assumed, most of us concur that Dumbledore would have died without
Snapes help. But I don't see any one else asking why ESE!Snape killed
him again, in that case. I mean, seriously, why? One death is enough
for anyone (anyone with a whole soul anyway) right? If the potion was
doing the job, then why needs it be done again? I think the potion was
primed to kill Dumbledore the second he ran out of fight, or stopped
fighting for his life.

But then add it together. Voldemorts Deadly potion, bodgy looking
Avada Kedavra from Snape, fall from the tower = Only one death. Which
one is the odd one out? Which is real killer of a wizard like Dumbledore?

It's got to be the potion, hasn't it? 

But then wouldn't that mean that Harry killed Dumbledore?

Why would Dumbledore order Harry to kill him and then order Snape to
cover it up? 

tick tick tick tick.... BRRRRRRRING! Times UP!

The Horcrux soul piece was never destroyed by Dumbledore. Oh yeah the
ring was destroyed, but the soul piece.. the desperate, fearful and
darkly powerful and persuasive piece of Voldemorts soul, nearly kill
its attacker and then just keel over itself after such a victory? Not
likely.

By Dumbledore's account Voldemort won the melee of the ring Horcrux.
Snape saved Dumbledores life, and the ring was "....no longer a
Horcrux". But did Voldie die in the encounter? Dumbledore never says
he did, he never even implies it. And then he gets Harry to kill him
one night. How strange...

Jen:
> The other notable plot development we always see is Voldemort's 
> ultimate failure: Yes, he opened the chamber but failed to return to 
> human form; yes he transported Harry to the graveyard, but failed to 
> kill him; yes, he lured Harry to the DOM, but failed to get the 
> prophecy; yes, he managed to get Dumbledore killed, but.....? 
<snip>
> 
> (All I know is I'm still waiting for my Dumbledore explanation, and 
> since we didn't get one in the flesh, I'm waiting for him to do so 
> via letter, Pensieve, etc.)
> 

Valky:
OKay, just assuming that my explanation above is the correct one. Then
how could Harry find this out? Heres my favourite theory.

1. Snape will tell Harry. Woot! won't that be Bangy.
"You Killed Dumbledore!!"
"No I didn't you half-wit, moron. You did!"

2. We will see Harry do it again. But this time knowingly with a long
wound out explanation of what's going on lending to how it was
forshadowed by Dumbledore.
My hypothetical example, based on mythology, is that Aberforth has
been watching over someone in the Forbidden Forest, at some point in
the past he was trying to actually save this poor bloke who is an old
friend Caradoc Dearborn.
Caradoc and Aberforth  thought they had Voldie figured out after Albus
knocked off Grindelwald, and CD tried to off the Hufflepuff Horcrux.
Things went pear shaped for them and Caradoc ended up maimed and
mortally wounded with a piece of Voldies soul attached to him. Since
then he's been hiding out in the FF (see Firenze's conversation with
Harry in PS/SS when he says thing"s", not thing) while Aberforth keeps
it all hush for him and they try to figure out how to finish the job
and save Caradoc who is slowly having his life drained away and
turning into a pretty hideous Voldemort type thing himself. 
Harry finds it all out, and in the end they discover that Caradoc will
have to die like Dumbledore, at Harry's hand so they do the deed. 

3. Harry will try to destroy another Horcrux but he will be *really*
pressed for time when he does it and he'll end up offing someone
else..(sob). I really don't think I'll go there yet.

Valky