The cave potion and soul pieces (Re: OFH! Snape again )

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 140915

> Valky:
> I have read this point of view many times on the list. I think it
> can be assumed, most of us concur that Dumbledore would have died
> without Snapes help. But I don't see any one else asking why ESE!
> Snape killed him again, in that case. I mean, seriously, why? One
> death is enough for anyone (anyone with a whole soul anyway) 
> right? If the potion was doing the job, then why needs it be done
> again? I think the potion was primed to kill Dumbledore the second
> he ran out of fight, or stopped fighting for his life.

Jen: I don't know Valky, most of us concurring on any issue about 
Snape seems highly improbable! I agree with your assessment, though. 
Using the ring incident as a guide, Dumbledore was again in mortal 
peril and expected to be patched up by Snape. Then it appeared 
Dumbledore gave up on getting Snape to his side in time, and chose 
to save Harry and Draco. Otherwise he wouldn't have given up his 
wand. 

Valky: 
> But then add it together. Voldemorts Deadly potion, bodgy looking
> Avada Kedavra from Snape, fall from the tower = Only one death. 
> Which one is the odd one out? Which is real killer of a wizard
> like Dumbledore?
> It's got to be the potion, hasn't it? 
> 
> But then wouldn't that mean that Harry killed Dumbledore?

Jen: I think the water would have to be the poison to make this 
stick. Dumbledore ordered Harry to give him the potion after he had 
drunk quite a few cups himself. Arguably Dumbledore killed himself 
if it was the potion. But the *water*, Harry gave him the water even 
knowing Voldemort had designed the trap to make the drinker crave 
water, and also after Dumbledore told him not to touch it.

As to why Dumbledore didn't die immediately, it could be how little 
water Harry got in his mouth or Dumbledore took a general antidote 
prior to the trip, delaying the activation. He did know 'Riddle's 
style' and could have planned accordingly. I think when Dumbledore 
started drinking the potion and said it wouldn't kill him 
immediately, he didn't guess the reason why--that the potion itself 
served one purpose, and once that purpose was served, the water 
would actually finish the job fairly quickly (more on the potion 
below). DD didn't think to warn Harry again about the water. 

Valky:
> Why would Dumbledore order Harry to kill him and then order Snape
> to cover it up? The Horcrux soul piece was never destroyed by
> Dumbledore. Oh yeah the ring was destroyed, but the soul piece..
> <snipping> Snape saved Dumbledores life, and the ring was "....no
> longer a Horcrux". But did Voldie die in the encounter? Dumbledore
> never says he did, he never even implies it. And then he gets
> Harry to kill him one night. How strange...

Jen: I'm guessing you will have an answer for this: "However, a 
withered hand does not seems an unreasonable exchange for a seventh 
of Voldemort's soul." (chap. 23, p.503, Scholastic).
 
> Valky:
> OKay, just assuming that my explanation above is the correct one. 
Then how could Harry find this out? Heres my favourite theory. 
> 1. Snape will tell Harry. Woot! won't that be Bangy.
> "You Killed Dumbledore!!"
> "No I didn't you half-wit, moron. You did!" (more theories snipped 
here)

Jen: OK, that moment alone might be worth your theory being true! 
Except Snape passed up the perfect opportunity to lay his guilt trip 
on Harry when H. screamed for him to 'kill me, like you did him, 
coward!' (paraphrased).

*************************************************
You mentioned how the soul piece in the ring might have attached 
itself to Dumbledore instead of dying, and that made me wonder again 
what happened to his hand. First to address the potion, though.

I noticed a thought on another forum how Riddle was attempting an 
early form of possession with the two Muggle children in the cave 
and that's why they couldn't remember what happened. This made sense 
to me, Voldemort continually uses possession as a weapon and 
survival skill throughout the series. 
 
So I started wondering--could the potion in the cave have the 
ability to weaken and then possess the person drinking it? 
Possession would explain how Voldemort was able to keep the potion-
drinker "alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate 
so far through his defenses, and most importantly of all, why they 
were so intent upon emptying the basin." (chap. 26, p. 569, 
Scholastic) 
 
This might also explain some of the things Dumbledore said that 
night. For instance: "I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, 
make it stop...KILL ME!" These statements echo Harry at the DOM when 
possessed by Voldemort: "Let the pain stop, thought Harry. Let him 
kill us...End it, Dumbledore..." (chap. 36, p. 816)

Now a potion being able to possess someone seems farfatched except 
we have a precendent for it with the liquid-like substance of 
memories found in a Pensieve and the memory in the diary possessing 
Ginny. 

To get to the point--could there be a possession protection on all 
the Horcruxes? Because the idea of the withered, blackened hand made 
me think of the power of evil being destroyed by Snape, and as it 
left the body and disintegrated, it would destory the portal through 
which it entered (wand hand). What do you think?

Jen