OFH! Snape again. WAS: Straightforward readings?

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 140892

> zgirnius:
> People may of course make what they will of the symbolism of there 
> being an actual howling dog in the background. But the text
> presents it your way, so I'd say we would have to agree Snape is
> being compared to the dog, whatever other meanings it might
> have.<snipped quote> Now, finding it poignant or otherwise is of
> course left up to the reader. 

Valky:
> It goes strongly to a DD's Man Snape that there is an allusion IMO
> because all three of the characters linked by the analogy have now
> been called cowards. Fang, always labelled the cowardly big dog,
> Sirius was goaded by Snape about being a coward when he was
> confined to GP, and now Harry is calling Snape a coward his 
> reaction is the same as Sirius'one and Fangs one in Hagrids
> burning hut. It hurts, he's trapped, and theres nothing he can do
> about it.

Jen: Both ideas seem compatible after all, and not either/or as I 
initially thought. I'll admit Sirius never came to mind while 
reading that passage, but it does work and seems more than 
coincidental all were called cowards. 

Not to keep stretching this one passage too thin, but a thought just 
crossed my mind: I've always wondered *why* Snape goaded Sirius with 
being a coward in OOTP. Of all the faults Sirius was saddled with, 
this truly wasn't one of them. What if Snape was thinking about the 
Potters, though? No matter how many times Dumbledore told Snape that 
Sirius believed it was a good idea to switch with Peter, Snape would 
never believe it. He would believe Sirius was a coward, too scared 
to be the SK and face Voldemort, so he bailed. Hmm, is that another 
Snape/Harry parallel?  Misinterpreting someone's acts as cowardly 
because you don't know or don't believe the full story? 

And Zgirnius, what are you saying, poignancy wasn't the universal 
reaction to this moment? ;)

Zgirnius: 
> Although I really find the suggestion of houyhnhnm above pretty
> neat as well. That after making the Vow Snape has wondered himself
> whether he would have the guts to make the "right choice" of
> dying, but finds in the end that circumstances have made the issue
> rather murkier than he expected it would be. So he'll never know
> if he would under other circumstances have acted differently. 

Jen: Thinking of Sirius above, this struck me as a very similar 
situation--neither Snape nor Sirius found out if they could follow 
through with the vows they made. JKR told us Sirius would die for 
the three people he loved more than anyone, that she really believes 
that's part of his character. Could Snape?

Saraquel:
> The question is, will we get the explanation from DD or Snape?
> Would DD leave anything "in writing" so to speak, lying around. He
> was always incredibly careful about who was allowed to know what,
> and was a master at concealing and revealing (or - from another 
> POV -was also caught in his own Spinners End!)

Jen: There's one important letter Dumbledore left in safe-keeping, 
and I'm hoping against hope Harry will convince Petunia to let him 
read it during his last stay at Privet Dr. Maybe Snape does know 
everything Dumbledore will say in the letter, but at least it would 
be in Dumbledore's words. Like you said though, no one else is left 
who can tell Harry about the ring Horcrux, and maybe the night at GH.

Saraquel:
> If Snape is on the side of the Order (I'm still not quite
> comfortable calling him DDM) then he has every reason to contact
> Harry. Harry's only reasons for contacting Snape (that I can think
> of off hand at the time of writing) are to find out what happened
> with the Ring horcrux, vengeance for DDs death and (for our
> satisfaction)an explanation of why DD trusted him. Which is an
> interesting combination. Luckily for us, extracting information
> can't be done after death, so Harry has got to talk to Snape first
> and hopefully you'll get your information Jen, but will Harry be
> able to trust it?

Jen: I find it so hard to imagine a scenario where Snape would 
actually give Harry any information. Besides blowing his cover to 
Voldemort, he just has this ingrained pattern of witholding things 
Harry wants and needs. Or maybe you're thinking this would come 
after Snape denies Voldemort and is a free man (so to speak)? Maybe 
with nothing to lose, and not having to practice Occlumency, we'll 
get to see a different Snape. Even at Spinner's End, I think we're 
getting the Snape show, a facade, part truth & part lies. I'm so 
curious to know who he is underneath that performance, or if the 
performance is all he has left.

You mentioned the possiblity of Dobby passing information from Snape 
to Harry and that's a really clever idea. Harry would believe Dobby, 
and it's not so heavy-handed as Fawkes delivering the message. My 
jury is still out on whether Fawkes will help prove Snape's loyalty, 
but he did go somewhere, and you don't get the sense a person 
inherits a phoenix, you know? More that the phoenix chooses the 
owner.

(P.S.--you're right about the Pensive, hiding memories in there 
wouldn't protect them from Voldemort. Darn it! Will have to re-think 
that one.)

houyhnhnm:
> On the one hand, it seems out of character for Snape to be 
> completely candid about the UV even if he was DD's Man. It's hard
> to imagine Snape being completely candid with anyone. Dumbledore's
> remark to Harry that "you might consider the possibility that I
> understood more than you did" could be construed as meaning, not
> that Snape had already confided in him, but that knowing about the
> UV explained some aspects of Snape's behavior--why he was
> reluctant to investigate Draco as thoroughly as DD would have
> expected, for instance.

Jen: I'm not sure what to make of that cryptic comment by DD. My 
inital read was Dumbledore believed he knew everything there was to 
know, everything Snape knew. Therefore, he didn't know about the 
vanishing cabinent because Snape didn't know. Musing about this 
makes me think Dumbledore did *not* think he was dying from the ring 
horcrux in HBP. Otherwise he wouldn't still be witholding 
information from Harry that's crucially important, like why he 
trusted Snape, and to come clean about whatever he knows regarding 
GH. Those are one in the same, I guess, if his trust is based on 
Snape's story.

houyhnhnm:
> In my wild speculation about what might have taken place between
> them when Snape was saving Dumbledore from the ring curse, I am not
> imagining a tender scene in which Snape cried, "Father!", and
> Dumbledore replied, "Son!", and they embraced. I think a fully
> conscious recognition of his emotional dependence on Dumbledore
> would terrify Snape. Rather his need for approval from DD as a
> father figure was brought just a little closer to consciousness,
> close enough to make it accessible to Voldemort but not close
> enough to make Snape wary, and Voldemort pounced on it.

Jen: That's even more believeable on Voldemort's part, and more true 
to Snape's character. You're right about the terror. I wasn't 
exactly imagining an embrace, but a moment when Dumbledore could no 
longer hold back whatever feelings he has for Snape, especially if 
he was dying and needed to say something before it was too late. But 
that probably doesn't fit because Dumbledore, even in death, would 
not betray Snape to Voldemort in a moment of selfishness. And 
the 'son' bit I was referring to in the last post was mostly 
symbolic, because there does seem to be a bit of sibling rivalry 
between Harry/Snape at times, jealousy as a motivating factor, if 
more for Snape than Harry.

Jen, who wants to answer Valky's post more fully but will have to 
wait until tomorrow.