Sectumsempra in the pensieve / or not

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 150376

 

Hi Potioncat, thanks it's good to be back.


> Valky: 
> 
> > 
> > Of course you know I agree with Alla on this one, especially on 
> > the point - Snape inventing Dark curses WAS one of the reasons of 
> > his rivalry with James, who always hated Dark Arts - I'd be so 
> > bold as to call this canon, myself, by virtue of Lupin in OOtP 
> > saying "- Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his 
> > eyes in the Dark Arts and James -- whatever else he may have 
> > appeared to you, Harry -- always hated the Dark Arts." 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Can you please give the location of this quote. Not to quibble...OK, 
> to quibble... my copy of OoP has Sirius saying that quote in chapter 
> 29. The only thing Remus really says is that after James quit hexing 
> people, "Snape was a special case. I mean he never lost an 
> opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to 
> take that lying down, could you?"

Valky:
Doh! the Lexicon page tricked me! I was shortcutting to the quote
using Google and when I found it on this page -
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/lupinsez.htm

Well I am sure you can guess the rest. :S 

Ooops, sorry Carol you were right I did misattribute it, silly me.  


> Potioncat:
> And where is the quote (I know it exists, and it's been mentioned 
> lately) where someone says Snape arrived knowing more curses than 
> most 7th years...is that in GoF?

Valky:
Yes its in GOF, I am pretty sure of that, in the cave meeting when
they talk about Karkaroff, Bertha and Florence as well, if memory
serves me correctly.


> Potioncat:
> Back to the issue at hand:
> When I first read of Sectumsempra, I assumed it was the same cutting 
> curse in OoP. I also assumed that Severus had controlled it better 
> than Harry had. We've seen examples where lack or control or at 
> least, very strong emotions can cause a spell to be more powerful. 
> However, I'm not too sure Severus could have so much control in that 
> situation. Also, the cut happens, there is blood...and not much 
> else. 
> No horrified gasps, no frantic wiping away, no comments. It's just 
> gone. It seems to have the same impact a bloody nose has in a fist 
> fight. So, whatever that spell was, I don't think it was considered 
> Dark. But, afterwards, Severus could have adapted it. My stand is 
> Sectumsempra, the Dark version, was invented later. 
>  
> 
> >Valky: 
> > I won't say James didn't have any prejudices, he did of course, 
> > but I would draw the line before accusing him of prejudging 
> > Sevvie based on unknown factors. IMO its only logical to assume 
> > that James pegged Snapey for Dark Arts Baby on something he 
> > personally observed, IMO that would be the only way to really get 
> > on James bad side, he'd have to *see* for himself that you do 
> > wrong by his standards or are bad by his standards, I think his  
> > three friends are testimony to that.

> Potioncat:
> One more bit of canon, Sirius, in OoP ch 29 says, just before the 
> oddball quote, "Look Harry, James and Snape hated each other from 
> the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those 
> things, you can understand that can't you? I think James was 
> everything Snape wanted to be---"
> 
> Sirius says the two boys hated each other from the moment they set 
> eyes on each other. Why? Were they standing at the platform, one 
> with a sign that said,"Spoiled Rich Kid" and the other "Dark Arts 
> Oddball"? Or did they each come with a reputation? And if so, who 
> spread the reputation?

Valky:
I admit I am kind of skimming over this point in my contention, mostly
because for me it seems like an unreliable observation. How does
Sirius know what Snape is thinking in the first moment he claps eyes
on James or vice versa. And what exactly is the first moment they set
eyes on each other anyway? when and where is that moment in their
lives? Are they three or eleven? Are they in Hogwarts or Diagon Alley,
there are so many unknowns just in that part, and then we have to
guess why Sirius knew they hate each other on sight, I mean did they
draw wands on the Hogwarts platform and begin staring each other down
before they even knew each others names? 

Now from Ron's point of view maybe he could also think that Draco and
Harry hated each other on sight. It might certainly seem that way from
the observers perspective, while in truth Harry and Draco had before
this 'first sight' met in Madam Malkins and not hated each other at
all, it wasn't until Draco had revealed his contempt for Hagrid's
'kind' that Harry developed reservations about Draco and then when he
had done the same to Ron that Harry confirmed in himself that he
didn't like Draco at all. While Draco all the while was trying to be
friendly with Harry too. But now looking back on it, it would be easy
to just throw out the comment that they hated each other on sight, it
would be partially true (they clearly were not going to like each
other in any case, given their polar differences), but overly general
IMO, and I suspect the same is true of James and Snape. Mostly because
it just seems so completely out of the small glimpse of James
character we have, for James to have maligned Severus on the basis of
reputation, but more even than that because noone outside of James and
Snape can really claim to know what occurred between them on sight,
Sirius can't possibly have an authoritative witness to share on it,
its impossible, IMO. 

 


> 
> Valky: 
> > You see, if Peter fooled James for over a decade that he was such 
> > a nice guy, and Sirius had the worst family reputation of any kid 
> > in Hogwarts, and Lupin came out of nowhere and had a very dark 
> > secret,well it stands to reason James didn't judge people on 
> > things he hadn't seen for himself, right?
> 
> Potioncat:
> Peter was a toady. That relationship doesn't reflect well on James.
> 

Valky:
I agree it doesn't, he was clearly a sucker for flattery, a vain and
concieted boy, no doubt. But there is also an strong element of
benevolence in James relationship with Peter evident in James' trust
in him and caring for him right through their adult years together.
Peter was known as weak and stupid, he was basically so repugnant that
it was an obvious disadvantage, and James may well have befriended
Peter long before he became the object of his Hero Worship, there's no
reason to assume that the way they behaved in fifth year was how they
started out or that it reflects the original intentions of James in
making a friend of Peter, the brown-nosing element could simply have
just developed over the course of a few years, perhaps with Peter
really working away at those weaknesses in his friend deliberately
manipulating him that way. We know that this is the kind of person
Peter was. 



Potioncat:
>  James knew Remus for quite a while before he found out about the 
> furry problem. By then he knew and liked the boy. Werewolves are 
> dark creatures. Would James have bothered to get to know him if he 
> had known he was a werewolf? 

Valky:
It's only my opinion, but I do think he would have done. When I put
together canon James I come up with a boy who didn't indulge in fears. 
That is why I contend so vehemently that Snape must have been a
dangerous boy. James' strongest character quality that we know was
that he was extraordinarily brave, it makes no sense that someone so
concieted and so brave at the same time (and concieted about his
bravery to compound it all) would allow himself to be seen locked in
eternal battle with an easy target. With the crowd cheering him on and
him being conscious of the girls by the lake watching him, it is clear
to me that he thought he was at the height of his pride in himself. 

We have proofs by contradiction that he would never be proud of
picking on something weaker or unfairly maligned, those proofs are his
friends. Including Lupin, who was everything that many Snapeoholics
are arguing was the one and only crime evident in Snape in the
Pensieve. Lupin was always as shabby and unkempt as Snape, he was
always as strange and quiet and staring at a book as Snape, Lupin was
the wierd unusual gawky boy who had no friends in first year, that
James befriended him is the absolute antithesis of a James who picked
on Snape for nothing. Lupin is the proof by contradiction that James =
empty headed Bully who picked on Snape for no reason - does not exist
IMHO. 

And as you know I go further that Lupin being a werewolf (and the rest
of the reckelssly brave James list) is proof to me that James engaging
Snape's wand against him = Snape was extremely dangerous. By you can
take or leave that as you wish. ;)

  


> Potioncat:
> We know about Sirius's family, but did James know before hand? 
> Looking at the Black Tree from outside, there are a fair number of 
> blood traitors.

Valky:
Okay thats a fair thing to say. Though the way everyone in the WW
quickly assumed that Sirius was a DE is very telling IMO, regardless
of the blood traitorship in his family the stigma was always there for
everyone else, even Lupin, who, even after knowing Sirius all through
his school years still couldn't get past the Dark Arts family stigma
to know that Sirus was a true friend, OTOH James continued to trust
Sirius so much that he followed Sirius' secret Keeper plan through to
the end, he trusted Sirius with the knowledge that weak and vulnerable
Peter was the true secret keeper and made him Harry's Godfather as
well. James was different to the rest of the WW when it came to
Sirius. The person he distrusted in the end, Lupin, was the one who
was like Snape in some very particular ways. Interesting, No?




> Potioncat:
> 
> One thing that I go back to, is that James hated the Dark 
> Arts/Severus was up to his eyeballs.
> 
> Why did James know so much about Dark Arts to hate them? Was Dorea 
> Black Potter involved? Was someone in his family hurt by them? 

Valky:
Personally, I think it might have been because the WW was being so
hurt by Dark Arts at the time, I understand how a lot of people
disagree that James and Sirius could be so political at such a young
age, but I think they were ontological kids, thinking and moralising
was part of how they expressed themselves I don't think that they were
too young for it at all.  

I don't think James really did know much about the Dark Arts, he was
too prejudiced against them, is my guess, and gave them a really wide
berth. While OTOH I believe its possible that Snape was very like
James in his own way, brave in his own way in delving into the Dark
Arts to understand them, going where angels fear to tread, I think
Severus was a political boy too. 

Most of my pondering leads me to a place where James and Snapes hatred
was based on misunderstanding of each other, neither able or willing
to conceded their likenesses so they concentrated most defiantly on
their differences instead. 



> And why has no one mentioned the Remus quote from HBP saying that 
> young Severus hadn't been as bad as he was made to look? Can anyone 
> find that one?
> 
> Potioncat.
>

Valky:
Oh please find this one someone :) I actually do agree with it.