Snape's Cruelty Has Purpose /Why I Hate Snape/Snape's Worst Memory

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 150620

> Deb here: 
Fak!Moody had to be nice to Harry and other students in 
> order to carry out his assignment for LV. It would have been OOC 
for 
> Real!Moody to be vicious to Harry, Ron or any other DDM!character! 
> The real Moody is/was an Auror fighting against LV and very much 
> DDM. If Fake!Moody (the only Moody we really see in GOF) had 
favored 
> Slytherins or any other person who had leanings toward the dark 
side 
> DD would have known much sooner that Moody was a Fake. Barty 
Crouch 
> Jr was a good actor. 

Magpie:
Barty Crouch doesn't hate Harry, period. And yet he's a loyal DE.  
He does hate Snape and the Malfoys.  Iow, he's not always acting. 
Fake!Moody isn't just trying to not show favor to the Slytherins, 
he's acting out his own real feelings about Snape and Malfoy. He 
isn't pretending to favor Harry, he really does want Harry to win 
the Tournament.  His story includes these little moments where we 
know there's some explanation beyond what we already know, and later 
it's explained.  With Snape we're talking about the opposite as far 
as I can see, because there is not one moment I can think of that 
would be explained better by Snape faking his behavior to Harry, 
Neville and Hermione.  Instead this explanation explains away what's 
actually there.

Deb:

>  Snape on the other hand can't be nice to Harry et al for much the 
> same reasons IMO - in order to fulfill his mission for DD and spy 
on 
> LV he has to continue to convince LV that he is on the LV+DE side.

Magpie:
Why can't Snape be nice to Harry et al for much the same reasons 
Moody can-in order to fulfill his mission for DD and spy on LV?  
Snape is supposed to be a double agent on both sides.  There's 
nothing out of the ordinary about LVM!Snape sucking up to Harry and 
the good guys when he has the chance.  Frankly, it's what a good 
double agent would do, imo.  It's what LV would do too.  Snape's 
behavior towards Harry drives Harry away from him, so I don't see 
how it proves him a good DE.  And why does he have to be impatient 
and biting to Neville or say Hermione's a know-it-all?

Deb: 
> And to do that he has to allow LV to use his Legilmency skills to 
> probe his memories (how long do you think anyone of LV's minions 
> would last if they refused the Dark Lord or tried to evade his 
> probing - my hunch would be that LV spent a lot of time once he 
> returned to corporeal form interrogating all of the DEs-LV is 
after 
> all very paranoid and suspects everyone). Snape is apparently the 
> only person who has ever successfully lied to LV. And again IMO 
the 
> only way to accomplish that is to keep from making too many 
memories 
> that he would be worried about LV seeing... And as anyone knows 
the 
> best way to tell a successful lie is to stick as close to the 
truth 
> as possible.    

Magpie:
Yes, the best way to tell a successful lie is to stick as close to 
the truth as possible.  But that's not what you're describing.  
You're describing a Snape who comes up with this completely 
different character for himself, one who is infuriated by Harry 
because he looks like his father, who is annoyed by Hermione's know-
it-all-ness and Neville's ineptitude, and having to play that part 
for all its worth so as to stick to it.  But I don't see why Snape 
has to be this person or create this elaborate persona.  Nor do I 
see how it sticks close to the truth, since really Snape apparently 
isn't infuriated by these kids.  Sticking to the truth would mean 
Snape acting fairly close to his regular self. 

Deb:
>  The whole chapter called Spinner's End in HBP demonstrates to me 
> Snape's skills as a Spin Doctor par excellence. He sticks close to 
> the truth when answering Bella's accusations ... he just shades 
the 
> reason's for his actions... 

Magpie:
Exactly. But also exactly what he's *not* doing at Hogwarts if his 
behavior towards Harry is an act. Snape in Spinner's End isn't 
putting on fake emotional displays that I can see. 

Deb:
Bella is apparently no slouch at 
> Legilemency herself (Snape guesses she's teaching this to Draco) 
and 
> he has her convinced by the end that he is LVM all the way. 

Magpie:
I wouldn't be so sure he's got her convinced of that all the way by 
the end, actually.

Deb:
And has 
> Narcissa convinced that he will thwart LV's plans for Draco (and 
> doesn't that actually show he isn't LVM - if he were wouldn't he 
> tell her that The Dark Lord must be obeyed and that she needs 
> to "suck it up" and let Draco get on with it...??)  and makes a UV 
> to do so! With Bella as their binder. Now that is acting IMO.  

Magpie:
It's not acting at all.  The vow is real, it's not an act.  He 
hasn't just convinced Narcissa he's going to thwart Voldemort's 
plans for Draco he's taken a vow that he must try to do that or 
die.  Whatever convincing he's done for Bella he's done through that 
action, not his acting skills.

> Deb here: 
>   Yes true but the SH also says when questioning HP's desire to 
not 
> go into Slytherin "You could be great, you know, it's all here in 
> your head, and Slytherin *will* (empasis mine) help you on the way 
> to greatness, no doubt about that --". And SH also tells Harry in 
> DD's office that it stands by what it said.. Harry would have done 
> well in Slytherin.  I wonder if that one word *will* is a 
> foreshadow, hint, clue that a Slytherin (or Slytherin the House in 
> general) will be instrumental in bringing Harry to his peak of 
> power.   

Magpie:
Yes, that hat does say he'd do well there and a Slytherin could be 
instrumental in bringing Harry to his peak of power, I agree.  But 
that's a side issue and doesn't prove that Harry was supposed to be 
in Slytherin or that it would have changed his entire relationship 
with Snape if he was.  I've seen no sign Snape wanted Harry in 
Slytherin, which I think we would see if it was so important.


> Deb here:
>   No I think the difference is in the roles ... House Master is 
> responcible for much more than lessons - a HM also is looking 
after 
> students physical and emotional well being (I worked as a Resident 
> Director of a college dorm for two years and think the position of 
> Head of House at Hogwarts would be quite similar though *sigh* I 
> didn't get to do magic). The interaction with students is quite 
> different. If McGonagall were not Harry's HM but only his 
professor 
> I doubt that she would have visited him in the infirmary, or gone 
to 
> his dorm room to check on him. LV would know that -if Harry had 
gone 
> into Slytherin House - Snape's role with him would be quite 
> different. And in order for Snape to stay "in character" (ie keep 
> convincing DD that he is DDM while convincing LV he is LVM) in 
that 
> situation he would have had to be much more involved in Harry's 
out 
> of class life. Plus he could still be nasty to Griffindor's if 
that 
> is what he was like before Harry arrived... and could be 
> encouraging, or less critical of Harry because after all he would 
> favor his own House would he not?       
>  


Magpie:
I don't think RD of a college dorm and HoH are quite similar.  We've 
seen the HoH at Hogwarts.  McGonagall's relationship to Harry would 
be different if she wasn't his HoH, but not that different.  Not in 
a way I see it changing Snape's problem. And not in a way that I can 
see why Snape can't just use this same argument to explain why he's 
not picking on Harry as his Potions Master.  Yes, he could explain 
favoring Harry as house favoritism if he were in Slytherin, but that 
doesn't mean he must disfavor him because he's a Gryffindor or that 
his personal disfavor of him is an act. 

I'm still stuck with the same basic premises that don't work for me: 
1. That Voldemort requires Snape to pick on Harry, Neville, Hermione 
and occasionally Ron by association to prove he's loyal to 
Voldemort. 2. That Voldemort makes a big distinction in his mind 
between Potions Master and Head of House, seeing one as a position 
in which less than malicious treatment is a sign of disloyalty, but 
the other a position that requires the feigning of personal 
affection. 

And then an even bigger problem is, if this theory is true and all 
of Snape's harsh or insulting words to Harry and his friends were an 
act to convince LV he's a loyal DE should he ever have 
returned...who is Severus Snape?  What is his personality outside of 
what he fakes for a job?  How does he really feel about these people 
and where are the moments when he shows it in canon?  Barty Crouch, 
as I said above, is not acting throughout GoF.  He's pretending to 
be Alastor Moody, but the real Barty is the one always looking out 
through the mask.  His most emotional moments, especially, are real--
they're just owed to different things that we thought we were when 
he was Moody.  So what about Snape?  How does the idea that this has 
all been an act fit his actions *more* than the idea that his 
emotional states came from something real inside him?

That's how these recognition solutions work throughout the books.  
We'd have to see scenes that brought up all these ideas in order for 
the end reveal to turn on them.  But there's nothing in canon that 
brings any of this up that I can see. Canon, on the contrary, keeps 
revealing other stuff instead, stuff that suggests Snape's hatred of 
Harry and general bitterness is personal and connected to his own 
personal emotional past.  

Joe:
Here is something that has bothered me for a while. Could the scene 
in the pensive really be Snape worst memory? A high school(in the 
US) altercation with a couple of guys he didn't like? Doesn't that 
sound way to much like those Jerry Springer commercials "Got issues 
from high school and want to confront your old schoolmate?"

Magpie:
Yes--and Snape would fit in really well on Jerry Springer.:-)  Snape 
has a lot of issues about respect.  He demands it and seems to hold 
it as more important even than love.  In this scene he's completely 
helpless, emasculated and ridiculous.  I absolutely think he would 
have more trouble with it than anything he'd seen as a DE.  As a DE 
he might not be proud of what he'd done but at least it was 
something he'd chosen to do, a place where he was in control.  
People are funny about what humiliates them. I suspect many people's 
worst memories are something others would not see as such a big deal.


-m