Snape's Cruelty Has Purpose /Why I Hate Snape/Snape's Worst Memory

[Deb]

No: HPFGUIDX 150644

> Magpie:
> Barty Crouch doesn't hate Harry, period. And yet he's a loyal DE.  
> He does hate Snape and the Malfoys.  Iow, he's not always acting. 
> Fake!Moody isn't just trying to not show favor to the Slytherins, 
> he's acting out his own real feelings about Snape and Malfoy. He 
> isn't pretending to favor Harry, he really does want Harry to win 
> the Tournament.  His story includes these little moments where we 
> know there's some explanation beyond what we already know, and 
later 
> it's explained.  With Snape we're talking about the opposite as 
far 
> as I can see, because there is not one moment I can think of that 
> would be explained better by Snape faking his behavior to Harry, 
> Neville and Hermione.  Instead this explanation explains away 
what's 
> actually there.
 
 Deb:
   Barty Crouch Sr is the Head of the Department of International 
Magical Cooperation and hates the Malfoys and hates all persons who 
side with LV
   Barty Crouch Jr (aka Fake!Moody) is LVs "most loyal servant" and 
probably likes all DEs as long as he thinks they are loyal to his 
Lord and Master, LV. But when he drinks Polyjuice and becomes Fake!
Moody he has to take on the persona and attitudes and behaviors of - 
   Alastair Moody - the real one - who is an Auror and yes *he* 
hates the Malfoys, is suspicious of Snape and isn't convinced like 
DD was that Snape has truly renounced his DEness. Soooo BCjr has to 
be a very good actor in order to impersonate Auror Moody for nearly 
a whole school year and give voice to things and do things that are 
contrary to what he really believes.  

 
> Magpie:
> Why can't Snape be nice to Harry et al for much the same reasons 
> Moody can-in order to fulfill his mission for DD and spy on LV?  
> Snape is supposed to be a double agent on both sides.  There's 
> nothing out of the ordinary about LVM!Snape sucking up to Harry 
and 
> the good guys when he has the chance.  Frankly, it's what a good 
> double agent would do, imo.  It's what LV would do too.  Snape's 
> behavior towards Harry drives Harry away from him, so I don't see 
> how it proves him a good DE.  And why does he have to be impatient 
> and biting to Neville or say Hermione's a know-it-all?
> 
> Deb: 
   Because it would be out of character for him to be nice to Harry 
etal... it would not fit the "role" he has taken on to make LV 
believe that he is still a loyal DE. 

 > Magpie:
> Yes, the best way to tell a successful lie is to stick as close to 
> the truth as possible.  But that's not what you're describing.  
> You're describing a Snape who comes up with this completely 
> different character for himself, one who is infuriated by Harry 
> because he looks like his father, who is annoyed by Hermione's 
know-
> it-all-ness and Neville's ineptitude, and having to play that part 
> for all its worth so as to stick to it.  But I don't see why Snape 
> has to be this person or create this elaborate persona.  Nor do I 
> see how it sticks close to the truth, since really Snape 
apparently 
> isn't infuriated by these kids.  Sticking to the truth would mean 
> Snape acting fairly close to his regular self. 

 Deb:
   I didn't say Snape had become a whole different person by 
assuming this role. We have never in all 6 books (IMO) seen the REAL 
Snape. But I suspect that even when he is not acting a part he is a 
prickly, caustic, and difficult man to be around. He probably will 
never be a warm fuzzy kind of person. But I doubt that he is 
actually a cruel person behind the facade. Stern, demanding, 
sarcastic perhaps, but cruel, no I don't think so.   The only time 
we see Snape showing anything like conventional social skills is at 
Spinners End when Bella and Narcissa show up. Though from brief 
glimpses that we see of Snape interacting with his fellow professors 
it appears he gets along OK with them. As I see it Snape exaggerates 
some of his natural tendencies in his behavior toward the trio - the 
easiest role to assume after all is one that is close to one's true 
nature.   
(snip)
> Magpie:
> It's not acting at all.  The vow is real, it's not an act.  He 
> hasn't just convinced Narcissa he's going to thwart Voldemort's 
> plans for Draco he's taken a vow that he must try to do that or 
> die.  Whatever convincing he's done for Bella he's done through 
that 
> action, not his acting skills.
> 
> > Deb here: 
     The vow is real yes. But his acting is in his Spin Doctoring - 
in his shading of nuance of meanings when he is answering Bella's 
accusations and when he is agreeing to help Narcissa thwart LV's 
plans for Draco. Isn't that some trick to say in front of Bella that 
he will protect Draco when all three of them suspect LV believes 
that Draco will fail - and maybe even hopes he will fail - and that 
LV will kill him if he does? Yet Bella a very staunch LV supporter 
agrees to be binder for this Vow ... against LV's interests! In the 
space of a few pages he turned Bella from a Snape hater (or at least 
a disbeliever in the DEness of Snape) to a Snape supporter and one 
who agrees to help her sister and Snape go against LVs wishes. I 
think that in taking this Vow Snape also is strengthening  promises 
he made to DD - to protect not only Harry but all Hogwarts students 
from committing such a serious magical offense that it would send 
them to Azkaban ("no Unforgiveable Curses for you, Potter") or 
damage their souls through the act of murder.   
  
 
 
> Magpie:
> I don't think RD of a college dorm and HoH are quite similar.  
We've 
> seen the HoH at Hogwarts.  McGonagall's relationship to Harry 
would 
> be different if she wasn't his HoH, but not that different.  Not 
in 
> a way I see it changing Snape's problem. And not in a way that I 
can 
> see why Snape can't just use this same argument to explain why 
he's 
> not picking on Harry as his Potions Master.  Yes, he could explain 
> favoring Harry as house favoritism if he were in Slytherin, but 
that 
> doesn't mean he must disfavor him because he's a Gryffindor or 
that 
> his personal disfavor of him is an act. 
> 
> I'm still stuck with the same basic premises that don't work for 
me: 
> 1. That Voldemort requires Snape to pick on Harry, Neville, 
Hermione 
> and occasionally Ron by association to prove he's loyal to 
> Voldemort. 2. That Voldemort makes a big distinction in his mind 
> between Potions Master and Head of House, seeing one as a position 
> in which less than malicious treatment is a sign of disloyalty, 
but 
> the other a position that requires the feigning of personal 
> affection. 

Deb here:
   I never said that LV "required" Snape to pick on the trio and 
their friends. I said Snape had to maintain a role that would 
convince LV that he was still a loyal DE. The role that Snape 
adopted involves showing disdain for them, ridiculing them, and 
acting in a mean way to them so that if/when LV scans/legilimens's 
Snape it appears that he dislikes them. I think that LV would expect 
that any loyal DE would "hate" the person who brought LV down, don't 
you? Snape's attitude toward Harry in class is quite similar to tht 
of Lucius Malfoy's - sneering, insulting, "looking down my nose at 
you". 

Deb (aka djklaugh) Snape is a very complex individual and we may 
never completely understand him. I can only sincerely hope that Book 
7 will answer most of the question "Who is Severus Snape really?"