Snape's Cruelty Has Purpose /Pansy Parkinson

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 150670

>  Deb:
>    Barty Crouch Sr is the Head of the Department of International 
> Magical Cooperation and hates the Malfoys and hates all persons 
who 
> side with LV
>    Barty Crouch Jr (aka Fake!Moody) is LVs "most loyal servant" 
and 
> probably likes all DEs as long as he thinks they are loyal to his 
> Lord and Master, LV. But when he drinks Polyjuice and becomes Fake!
> Moody he has to take on the persona and attitudes and behaviors 
of - 
>    Alastair Moody - the real one - who is an Auror and yes *he* 
> hates the Malfoys, is suspicious of Snape and isn't convinced like 
> DD was that Snape has truly renounced his DEness. Soooo BCjr has 
to 
> be a very good actor in order to impersonate Auror Moody for 
nearly 
> a whole school year and give voice to things and do things that 
are 
> contrary to what he really believes.  

Magpie:
He's not giving voice to things and doing things that are contrary 
to what he really feels much of the time.  Barty Crouch Jr. is 
suspicious of Snape and hates the Malfoys.  The real Moody is not 
necessarily suspicious of Snape at all--and while he presumably 
hates Lucius Malfoy we don't know that he'd have bounced Draco 
around in his anger.  Barty is acting like himself a lot of the time 
he's at Hogwarts.  That's what's so fun about him.  He gets to 
indulge himself right in front of everyone.
 
> > Deb: 
>    Because it would be out of character for him to be nice to 
Harry 
> etal... it would not fit the "role" he has taken on to make LV 
> believe that he is still a loyal DE. 

Magpie:
My point was just that from the point of view of Voldemort's plan 
there is no reason he could not be nice to Harry.  If it's OOC for 
Snape to be nice to Harry then what does Voldemort's plan have to do 
with it when he's not nice to Harry?  

>  Deb:
>    I didn't say Snape had become a whole different person by 
> assuming this role. We have never in all 6 books (IMO) seen the 
REAL 
> Snape. But I suspect that even when he is not acting a part he is 
a 
> prickly, caustic, and difficult man to be around. He probably will 
> never be a warm fuzzy kind of person. But I doubt that he is 
> actually a cruel person behind the facade. Stern, demanding, 
> sarcastic perhaps, but cruel, no I don't think so. 

Magpie:
So which are the times when Snape is faking things just so that 
Voldemort thinks he's on his side?  Where's the line and why does 
Snape choose to cross it when he does?  I thought that was the whole 
point here, that Snape's behavior towards Harry, Neville and 
Hermione was something he had to do because of Voldemort.  What 
would be the difference if he didn't have to convince Voldemort of 
something?

Deb:
  The only time 
> we see Snape showing anything like conventional social skills is 
at 
> Spinners End when Bella and Narcissa show up. Though from brief 
> glimpses that we see of Snape interacting with his fellow 
professors 
> it appears he gets along OK with them. As I see it Snape 
exaggerates 
> some of his natural tendencies in his behavior toward the trio - 
the 
> easiest role to assume after all is one that is close to one's 
true 
> nature.  

Magpie:
So he's exaggerating his natural tendencies exactly how much?  What 
are his real feelings towards the Trio and where is he changing his 
behavior or exaggerating it?  Because to be blunt, this sounds like 
just a way of saying that any time Snape's behavior makes him look a 
little too bad, it's not really Snape, it's an act. 


> > > Deb here: 
>      The vow is real yes. But his acting is in his Spin Doctoring -
 
> in his shading of nuance of meanings when he is answering Bella's 
> accusations and when he is agreeing to help Narcissa thwart LV's 
> plans for Draco. Isn't that some trick to say in front of Bella 
that 
> he will protect Draco when all three of them suspect LV believes 
> that Draco will fail - and maybe even hopes he will fail - and 
that 
> LV will kill him if he does? Yet Bella a very staunch LV supporter 
> agrees to be binder for this Vow ... against LV's interests! In 
the 
> space of a few pages he turned Bella from a Snape hater (or at 
least 
> a disbeliever in the DEness of Snape) to a Snape supporter and one 
> who agrees to help her sister and Snape go against LVs wishes.

Magpie:
I don't really think he does that.  The vow is Bellatrix's idea 
because she's trying to make him put his money where his mouth is, 
and she's surprised when he agrees.  But yes, I've agreed that he 
does this sort of spying, where he pretends to be a DE and explains 
his actions in that light, but this still seems a very different 
thing than the show he's supposedly putting on for the Trio.  When 
he interacts with Draco at the Xmas party, that to me is more the 
equivalent of the way he is with the Trio.  He's spinning everything 
he's saying to conform to the DE story, but I don't think he's 
putting on an emotional act with the kid, exaggerating his like or 
dislike of him the way he's supposedly doing with Harry and his 
friends.  Snape's interactions with his students sometimes seem like 
the most honest he gets.  Without them I wonder on what to build his 
character.

> Deb here:
>    I never said that LV "required" Snape to pick on the trio and 
> their friends. I said Snape had to maintain a role that would 
> convince LV that he was still a loyal DE. The role that Snape 
> adopted involves showing disdain for them, ridiculing them, and 
> acting in a mean way to them so that if/when LV scans/legilimens's 
> Snape it appears that he dislikes them. I think that LV would 
expect 
> that any loyal DE would "hate" the person who brought LV down, 
don't 
> you? Snape's attitude toward Harry in class is quite similar to 
tht 
> of Lucius Malfoy's - sneering, insulting, "looking down my nose at 
> you". 

Magpie:
So you're not saying that Voldemort requires it, but that Snape has 
decided all on his own that it would be best because he imagines 
LV's thought processes the way you do (not the way I do, because I 
don't assume that LV would expect any DE to hate Harry in a way that 
showed itself as open contempt and teasing in class).  Not knowing 
what's going on in Snape's mind, this could be true, but I admit it 
still sounds like a cop-out, a way of erasing Snape's worst 
behavior.  I don't know what Snape will ultimately be revealed as 
either, but as I said, I feel like his interactions with the 
students are some of his most honest even when they're the most 
petty.  I do think that Snape's bitterness towards Harry is bound up 
in his situation with LV and his guilt over James etc., but any 
suggestion that is a sacrifice Snape is making for the kids' own 
good rings really false to me.

Carol:
Altogether a lucky break for Barty, who would, I imagine, have had a 
much tougher time impersonating Arthur Weasley or Nymphadora Tonks.

Magpie:
Yes. A lucky break for Barty, but not really lucky, because of 
course the author planned it that way.  That's what I mean about 
Snape.  Barty is fun because when you look back at his behavior you 
see him acting as himself. If Moody had just been a nice guy to 
Harry and stern with the Slytherins and then at the last minute it 
was, "Huh, so that guy was really a DE.  He was just an amazing 
actor," it's not interesting because we would never see the real 
Barty until his one scene where he literally comes out as a 
different actor, makes a speech, and gets kissed.  Instead we hear 
information about the real Barty in dribs and drabs, and this 
strange Moody character (stranger than the real Moody).  In the end 
the two come together and Fake!Moody makes more sense and is more 
compelling as Polyjuiced!Barty than just Unspecifically!Strange!
Moody.  With Snape it would be more like the former, because unless 
someone can point me to the canon, we just haven't seen a glimpse of 
this NicerGuy!Snape.  In fact, it undoes a lot of the reveals we've 
already gotten about him.

Nikkalmati:
Her portrayal of Pansy is of a girl who defines herself by Draco, 
follows  her boyfriend, and who would be content to be Mrs. Draco 
for the rest of her  life - not a very high ambition.  JKR would 
prefer her girls to be more  independent. 

Magpie:
I don't know...I think it's more her rudeness to others, etc., her 
talking about looks so much--she does it *a lot.*  To me personally 
this makes her seem insecure and gives her a vulnerability that 
keeps me from hating her, but she still really does it all the time, 
and that's what JKR's rant is about, not boys.  I think that's more 
defining for Pansy than the idea that she just follows Draco and 
does what he says.  To me it seems more like she's his friend so 
she's always on his side (as many of Harry's friends might seem to 
her as well). I just don't think we've seen any specific scenes 
where Pansy is changing herself to mirror him.  In fifth year they 
seem particularly equal, and she is the leader of her own female 
group.  As Betsy said, I think if you go down that route then Pansy 
ought to be looking for a better boyfriend.  Maybe it's just me, but 
I buy Draco and Pansy being friends and don't think it's a negative 
thing about them.  Not that they encourage each other into good 
behavior, obviously, I'm just uncomfortable with judging Slytherin 
friendships this way, like they can't ever be positive.  

-m