Snape's Cruelty Has Purpose /Why I Hate Snape/Snape's Worst Memory

[Deb]

No: HPFGUIDX 150738


> KathyK:
> 
> I certainly agree Crouch Jr had to do a fair bit of acting to
> impersonate Mad-Eye for a year, but he does hate Death Eaters "who
> walked free."  He says this as Moody back in Chapter 25 of GoF and
> then agin in Chapter 35 when he has revealed himself as LV's 
follower
> (he called those who avoided Azkaban, "scum," "treacherous 
cowards,"
> "worthless bits of filth," etc).  He was not feigning hatred toward
> the Malfoys or Snape.  He *hates* them rather violently.  That 
part of
> the Crouch!Moody bit was not an act.

 Deb: (trying to recreate scintilating prose that I wrote last night 
in response to KathyK -- which appears to have been eaten by Crumple-
 Horned Snorkack or some other beastie. Wish I had a QuikQuotes 
computer!)

 Yes you're right. I'd forgotten about his hating DEs who walked 
free. Wonder what he would have thought, if he had survived to meet 
up with LV after his return,  of LV welcoming Snape back into the 
DEs with open arms? And how would he have reacted to LV pardoning 
(or what ever it was that LV did to accept the other DEs who didn't 
make it to Azkaban) Malfoy and the others? 
 KathyK:
> 
> I just went through the wording of the UV (I'm sure everyone else
> already has a million times, but I haven't done so).  Nothing Snape
> promises goes against Lord Voldemort's wishes or interests as I
> understand them from the Spinner's End chapter.  Voldemort wants 
Draco
> to kill Dumbledore.  Expecting or hoping Draco will fail so he can
> kill him does not change this.  Narcissa asks Snape to watch over
> Draco while Draco tries to complete his task.  Snape promises to
> protect Draco to the best of his ability.  Then he promises to
> complete the task should Draco fail.  The end result is still a 
dead
> Dumbledore.  
> 
> Can you explain how you think the UV goes against LV's 
wishes?  'Cause 
> I'm not convinced protecting Draco to the best of Snape's ability
> includes protecting him against Voldemort should Draco fail.  And
> that's the only part of the vow I can see causing problems *if* it 
is
> taken as a blanket protection of Draco and LV still wants to kill 
him
> after Dumbledore is dead.  
 
 Deb here:
  I think LV was setting Draco up to fail. After all Draco is only 
16 years old, he has no experience repairing complex magical devises 
(and has never struck me as being particularly mechanically 
inclined), he's rather a wimp without his hulking cohorts Crabbe and 
Goyle, and I don't think LV really believes he actually has the 
cajones to kill DD if he got the chance.  I think LV would be just 
as delighted if Draco failed as he would be if he succeeded(maybe 
even more so). If Draco failed at any or all of his assignment then 
LV could have the pleasure (from LV's POV) of punishing him - he 
could Crucio him, or AK him, or... LV *loves* to see others in 
torment. He gets his jollies by inflicting pain - look how he 
treated some of his followers at the graveyard. And by punishing 
Draco he could also punish Lucius! I think LV was LIVID when Lucius 
bungled the acquisition of the prophecy... and even more irate when 
Lucius and the other DEs were captured and sent to Azkaban. They are 
beyond his reach there so he can not hand out his own punishments - 
deprived not only of the prophecy and his henchmen, but also 
deprived of an opportunity to dish out excruciating pain to multiple 
miscreants - this is LIVIDD!LV! (Loving Iniquity, Voldemort Inflicts 
Delighted Damage - wheee my first acronym). IMO, the UV has thwarted 
this aspect of LV's twisted plan vis a vis Draco. When Draco escapes 
with Snape he is unscathed, his soul is still intact, and he 
successfully completed half of the assignment himself (fixing the 
Vanishing Cabinet and getting DEs into Hogwarts). One wonders where 
Snape takes him and how Draco will escape (if he indeed does) LV's 
punishment when he learns that Draco was not the one who killed DD. 
While the whole assignment has been complete in one way or another, 
I wonder if LV will be satisfied with that... or will he also feel 
frustrated because once again a Malfoy has evaded his wrath.     
 
 KathyK:
> 
> Well, yes.  But Snape could still have created a role for himself
> where he *didn't* hate, pick on, or ridicule HP or other students 
and
> still would be able to explain away any sort of perceived 
favoritism
> (or complete indifference) toward Harry, IMO.  (This concludes 
the "me
> too to Magpie" portion of my post).

 Deb here:
  In order for Snape to be able to convince LV that he is still LVM!
Snape, Snape has to be able to "shut down feelings and memories that 
contradict the lie(s)" he is telling LV. This is the essence of 
Occlumency and Snape is a Master at it. But how does one hide lies 
from a Master of Legilimency? Well by sticking as close to the truth 
as possible, by staying as "in character" as possible. LV apparantly 
knew Snape well before he became Vapomort and would expect that any 
true DE would only become more vile, more vicious over time. 
Remember LV does not understand the "soft" emotions - he forgot the 
power of love in trying to kill Harry, compassion is a foreign word, 
tenderness is probably only for steak, and loyalty (again from LV's 
POV) is never a sure thing without painful reinforcers. LV rules his 
minions by fear and IMO he would expect that any returnee, 
especially one who had initially appeared to have left him, would be 
cowering when first arriving in LV's presence. Now I don't think 
Snape ever did "cowering" particularly well because it would be too 
reminiscent of his experience with his father(Occlumency lessons 
with Harry) and his experiences with James and friends, but he did 
apparently give fealty to LV at one point and would know what to 
expect when LV is displeased with someone. So when LV returns to 
corporeal existence and Snape returns to him, LV is going to expect 
a full accounting of the years since they last meet. And will expect 
that the emotions that go with the memories will be consistent with 
his(LV's) world view. I would imagine LV spent a lot of time just 
after his return, grilling each and every DE about what they had 
been doing since he vaporized and using his punishments to instill 
renewed fear and obedience into his troups. 
  I also think that Legilimency has two aspects - a mental ability 
to sense emotions in others - rather like empathy - and pull up 
memories that fuel or trigger those emotions. And then there is the 
wand work Legilimency that appears to work by forcing out memories 
that are linked to emotions that contradict what the person is 
saying.  For example, if I stood in front of LV and said "I am your 
servant, My Lord" when I am actually DD's person all the way, I'd 
better be able to pull up enough emotion to support the statement or 
LV is going to know I'm lying. And if he thinks that then out comes 
the wand and the Legilimens spell and out comes pouring all of the 
memories that are linked to the contradictory emotions. LV is like a 
human lie detector and the power of the Legilimens spell 
brings "proof" of any lies. But even RL mechanical lie detectors can 
be thwarted. The most typical way (I'm no expert on this - just what 
I remember reading) to foil a lie detector is to either be extremely 
angry during a test or be in serious pain. Those emotions can cause 
false readings from mechanical devices. Also true sociopaths who 
feel no emotions at all can foil a device because they lie all the 
time and feel no guilt or fear about doing so.  
 So the role that Snape takes on vis a vis Harry and friends has to 
also be consistent with who LV remembers him to be - arrogant 
perhaps, brilliant definately, irritable, angry, caustic, and 
definately not warm and fuzzy!!! Just as we read him to be in the HP 
books, Snape would still need to shut down feelings and emotions 
that would indicate his loyalty has shifted to DD, that he has 
become a true member of the OOP, that he has been protecting and 
teaching Harry not to fulfill LV's wishes, but to fulfill DD's 
wishes. If he were kind to Harry or even merely neutral, I think 
that that would seem OOC to LV and would cause him to suspect Snape -
 and then if he used the Legilimens spell on Snape... would he then 
find out the doings of the OOP, information about DD's Horcrux 
hunts, the truth about Harry's wizardly abilities? Whether or not he 
likes Harry is irrelevant IMO. DD trusted Snape to be loyal to DD 
and to fulfill what ever assignments he has taken on for DD and the 
OOP. What ever happened between Snape and DD, what ever memory it is 
that fuels DD's repeated conviction that he trusts Snape, I think 
must be very powerful. While DD believes in second chances, I don't 
think he does that blindly.  And I suspect that DD knows all about 
how to foil LV's lie detecting abilities. It appears to me that DD's 
bland, sweet, benign exterior is also one that LV can not penetrate. 
That maybe why LV feared him so much.  
 While DD admits that Occlumency lessons were a fiasco, Harry did, I 
think learn a lot from them ... and not just from Snape's memories. 
He learned that embarassing or fearful experiences and the memories 
of them do not kill you. And I suspect that LV's attempts to use 
Harry's emotions and memories against him will not be very effective 
in the future.        
  
> > I can only sincerely hope that Book 7 will answer most of the 
> > question "Who is Severus Snape really?"
> 
> KathyK:
> 
> Me too.  And I hope the answer is "A Really Bad Guy" <vbg>

Deb here:
 LOL Oh, no, no, no. Snape will be shown to be a courageous fighter 
for truth, justice and the Wizarding Way 

Deb (aka djklaugh) - I think I retrieved all of my previous musings 
from memory storage... unless I got zapped with a memory charm at 
the same time the Crumple-Horned Snorkack was devouring my previous 
post.