The Ancient and Noble House of Slytherin

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 150734

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Magpie" <belviso at ...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
> > Most Slytherins-
> 
> > Good Slytherins-
> >
> > I don't think we need ONE token Good Slytherin, and I don't 
> > think we need a conversion of all or most Slytherins. I say 
> > that if, in the absents of Draco's intimidation,
> 
> Magpie:
> This is one of the major problems I've always had with the "good 
> SlytherinS" theory--what intimidation from Draco?  Draco isn't 
> shown to be intimidating any Slytherins ever in the story. 


bboyminn:

My main point is shown below, and that is simply that it's not an
all-or-nothing affair. I find this frequently when we are discussing
various subject related to the books. For example, if Draco were to
join the good side then he and Harry would be 'best buddies forever'.
But, that is not necessarily true. 

Nor is it necessarily true that each and every Slytherin student must
join the side of good for the Houses to be considered united. There
will be some DE's and Voldemort sympathizer in every House, so why
should we expect perfection of unity from Slytherin? I say we
shouldn't. But if most normal Slytherins support the status quo (ie:
the Ministry) and cooperate, then I say the Four Houses are as united
as they will ever be or ever were.

My Draco comment was very incidental to my main statement. But as long
as you brought Draco up, let's explore. Draco is a bully, and further,
he is very outspoken about his beliefs regarding Voldemort,
Purebloods, etc.... Anyone who has ever been to high school knows that
the local schoolyard bully doesn't have to confront you personally for
you to feel intimidated by him. 

That said, I will agree that, in general, we don't really see Draco
intimidating fellow Slytherins. Though I am sure I can find passages
that I can stretch to imply that. But that's not really necessary,
because as I said, it doesn't necessarily take a direct threat or a
direct act of confrontation for people to feel intimidated. I think to
most average, in the background, Slytherins, Draco attitude is very
intimidating. How could it not be? 

So, I guess I'm saying I didn't expect anyone to give much weight to
my comment about Draco since my central point was something else
entirely. However, I think Draco's presence in the school does set a
mood that is anti-muggle-born and anti-Gryffindor and anti-anything
that annoys Draco in the moment. I see Draco's presence at Hogwarts as
being a powerful influential force. He is outspoken and seems to have
the implied priviledge of wealth. He feels he is protected from
anything he says and does by his father's wealth and power. Just that
alone is enough to intimidate some people.

So, my point relative to Draco is simply that it makes it easier for
other Slytherins to step forward without fear of conflict with Draco.
Whether that 'conflict' represents 'intimidation' or not is not so
relevant. It's simply easier without Draco there. Do you really deny
that it is easier for generally good Slytherin with Draco absent? 



> ...edited..

> 
> Steve:
> > we get /some/ Slytherins who can see the folly of following a 
> > deranged dictator like Voldemort and join the good side to 
> > fight against Voldemort, then the four House are united
> > as they were meant to be. It's not an all-or-nothing sort of 
> > thing.
> 
> Magpie:
> It's definitely not all or nothing, imo, but I'd say it depends
> a lot on who these people are.  A bunch of new people we've 
> never heard of show up to join Harry?  That's been suggested in
> the past and to me that's no solution because it's no story. I 
> think the houses united means uniting the rift we've seen, not 
> just filling out Harry's army with some kids from the dungeons 
> or revealing that Auror #3 was in Slytherin.
> 

bboyminn:

If I understand the first part of your statement correctly, you have a
problem with unknown unnamed background Slytherins suddenly stepping
forward and playing a more noticable role in the story. I can
certainly see that, but I think we have been introduced to enough
Slytherins by name that one or two of them could step forward as the
leaders, and the remaining 'good' Slytherins could remain unnamed.

True in the last (most recent) book the named Slytherins we see have
not been too friendly toward Harry, but I have to wonder if that is
based on typical schoolboy rivalries, or if it is a clear and solid
reflection of blood prejudice and support for Voldemort? Personally, I
lean toward schoolboy rivalries. In the absents of Draco, I think some
of the schoolboy rivals will be more willing to oppose Voldemort.

As far as the 'good Slytherin' story being no story, I can foresee an
attack on Hogwarts. I have said before that capturing Hogwarts and
it's students would allow Voldemort to essentially blackmail the
entire wizard world into cooperation. Hold the Children of the wizard
world, and you effectively hold the entire wizard world. Now with
Dumbledore gone, Hogwarts becomes a very appealing target. Voldemort
might just be foolish enough to see some merit in this plan. Voldemort
might even succeed, and that sets the scene for Slytherins to either
cooperate with Voldemort, or overtly and convertly fight against him.
Nothing like being someone's prisoner to make you think poorly of them.

My point is, in the framework you laid out, there probably isn't that
much of a story to 'good Slytherin'. What I am saying, is that
circumstances could occur in which the story might be made good.

I do agree that it's not simply a matter of a few Slytherins joining
Harry. I think there needs to be more story than that. I think for the
rift to be healed, they have to join not to fight Voldemort, but to
defend their school. Perhaps even to defend their world, which will
certainly fall apart if Voldemort takes over.

I guess we could ask why do any people anywhere ever join a slightly
mad dictator. Well, it usually because they see themselves gaining
wealth and power in the process, and those visions of wealth an power
blind them to what they have to do and what they have to give up. We
see how Voldemort treats his supporters, they bow and scrape and kiss
the hem of his robs. He tortures and kills them without hesitation and
with very little provocation. Still the delusions of wealth and power
blind them until it's too lated.

I have to believe that there are some intelligent Slytherin who see
the utter and complete folly of supporting Voldemort. As I've said
many times before, the wizard world (and probably the muggle world)
under Voldemort's rule will be a world in ruins. Commerce will be
destroyed. The poor will become utterly dirt poor. The middle class
will fall into ruin. The wealthy will be force to do Voldemort's
largely irrational bidding, or accept utter personal and financial
distruction. 

Slytherins are ambitious, they want to get rich and stay rich, and
that simply can't happen with the economy and international trade
complete destroyed. To an ambitious talented Slytherin with grand
plans for achieving personal wealth, fame, and power, supporting
Voldemort is the absolute worst thing they could do. If nothing else
greed tempered with common sense will lead them to oppose Voldemort. 




> Joe Goodwin:
> It just seems to me and Snape and Draco both working for the good 
> guys after having seen the error of their ways is a good bit too 
> contrived for a writer as imaginative as JKR. If that happened I 
> would expect everyone to join hands and sing Christmas Carols in 
> Whoville.
> 
> Magpie:
> I'm honestly surprised by this.  Not because I think either Snape
> or Draco are wonderful people or not potentially Voldemort-loyal, 
> but what is so overly happy about this outcome?  I mean, ..., it
> would be a case of anyone suddenly sprouting a halo.  She'd 
> probably put them through hell to earn it first.
> 
> I'm even more puzzled by the idea that what should happen is some
> minor Slytherin will politically decide what's best is to work 
> for Harry and then that will take care of it because...Who on 
> earth cares?  ...edited much good stuff....

bboyminn:

Though I'm much overstating it, some people seem to think that if
Draco joins the good side, he and Harry will be skipping through a
meadow of flowers holding hands and whistling show tunes. NOT!

Will Draco really join the side of good in his heart, thereby
completely reforming his beliefs and his attitudes, or will he simply
reject working for Voldemort as too dangerous? Rejecting Voldemort
does not mean suddenly accepting all good, right, and moral
principles. Draco is basically a misguided cowards; as I've said
before, I think in his mind, Draco pictured himself standing shoulder
to shoulder with Voldemort while adoring and/or fearful crowds bowed
down to them. He certianly didn't picture himself killing Dumbledore.
He certainly did picture himself compelled under thread of death doing
things he certainly did not want to do. He certainly did no see
himself bowing, scraping, and kissing Voldemort's hem. Draco had grand
delusions of what it meant to be a Death Eater, and now he is finding
that his grand delusions are really dark, terrible, degrading,
painful, dangerous, and reprehensible things. 

Harry Potter, in Draco's eyese, might be an annoying prat, but he is
not prone to torturing and killing people on a whim. It's far safer to
support Harry than it is to support Voldemort. So, let's not create
any grand delusions of Draco suddenly becoming all flowers and show
tunes. Draco is a Slytherin, and when he sees that it is in his best
long term and short term interest to NOT support Voldemort, then that
is what he will do. 

In other words, Draco's delusions have been shattered, and now he is
faced with a heavy dose of reality, hard cold nasty reality, and he is
rethinking his life. Perhaps he will be able to get out, perhaps he
won't, but I know for sure, Draco is no longer having grand romantic
delusion about what it means to be a Death Eater.

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn