[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Snape's redemption

[Sherry Gomes]

No: HPFGUIDX 150941

Don wrote:

Gollum and Snape's character, motives and actions are interestingly
parallel.  Both are despised by most; however each finds acceptance that
motivates them too uncharacteristic acts in support of others and the common
good.  Both find acceptance however.  Gollum is accepted by Frodo, Snape is
trusted and accepted by Dumbledore.  In return both take on incredible risk
to return this acceptance, regardless that their true nature remain cruel
and self-centered.

sherry now:

More LOTR spoilers.
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Gollum take on incredible risk to aid the hero?  seriously?  Gollum aided
Frodo as a means of survival and with the intention of treachery.  This is
clearly born out in the books by the eventual leading of Frodo into the lair
of shelob.  Gollum wasn't concerned with anything but getting his precious
back.  He tried to come between Frodo and Sam, and otherwise do anything he
could to isolate Frodo.  Everything he did was with the intent of stealing
away the ring.  The fact that he ended up unwittingly keeping the ring from
Sauron and destroying it unintentionally, does not mean he cared about
fighting Sauron or that he was good or heroic in the end.  and what poor
childhood?  He came from a wealthy family, so he wasn't deprived in whatever
would be considered poverty or deprivation in his world.  His first act in
the saga--not counting the years later first meeting with Bilbo--was to
commit murder of his best friend in order to steal the ring.  To me, this is
not a hero or even an anti-hero.  

Don again:
I suppose the question is; Are Gollum and Snape heros?  I suggest both are
willing, to stand up to the power and evil of Sauron and Voldemort
respectively, while many others are content to stand by the wayside - a good
qualifier of heroism.  This fact, however, avoids 
their motives, so their identification as a heros is suspect.   If 
not heros, anti-heros maybe?  I, however believe they at least act
heroically, acting outside of their self-interests at critical junctures,
furthering the causes of their respective heros.



sherry:

I've read LOTR dozens of times, and I have never read one scene in which
Gollum stood up to Sauron or did anything selfless for anyone.  Every single
action he takes is in his effort to betray Frodo to get the ring back.  I
can pity anyone so obsessed with such an evil object, but in general have no
pity for someone who would betray the only one who ever showed him
compassion or pity.  He wasn't fighting against Sauron or anything remotely
noble in any way.  He was just lusting after the Ring.  It was his
obsession, it ruled and possessed him.  That does not make him honorable or
against Sauron or fighting the good fight.

As for Snape, as yet, we have no canon that he loved Lily and feels some
great remorse for his part in her death.  And what did he do to try to
further the cause of Voldemort's downfall?  Another hero who betrayed the
one person in the world who gave him absolute trust, probably even love.
Again, for me, not a very honorable or noble act.  I don't really see Snape
and Gollum as very similar, except in this one thing:  they each were
willing to betray and murder the only true friend they had, to achieve their
goals.  With Gollum, his goal was to get the ring.  We have yet to see what
Snape's goal was, but I doubt strongly that murdering Dumbledore was the
best way to get rid of Voldemort.  in fact, I shudder to think what
Voldemort will do now that the one person he ever feared is gone.

As Alla said in a previous message in this thread, I can perhaps see Snape
committing some act that unintentionally helps Harry and then dying.  But I
do not see him as either a hero or anti-hero, who will risk his life in the
end, sacrifice himself to save Harry and thereby bring Voldemort's downfall.
The outcome of the ring is one of the great disappointments in literature
for me, that the ring is destroyed in such an unheroic way, and that Frodo
was defeated by it in the end.  I love LOTR, for the wonderful characters,,
not just Frodo, who is only one of several heroes in the story, but the end
of the ring was always terrible to me.  I wanted to see Frodo, against the
power the ring was holding over him, finally take it and fling it into the
fire.  I feel cheated every time I read and usually skip that part now.  To
have Snape kill Voldemort and take away Harry's final glory and success
would feel like cheating too.

Sherry