[HPforGrownups] Re: Christianity in HP? (WAS: Dumbledore's Death)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 151120

Tonks:
I completely agree with this. I have never disagreed with this. The
point that I have been trying to make is that it seems that when I
point out certain Christian symbols and themes (and I am not talking
about morals or moral theology at all), it does not seem to be taken
well on this list and I do not totally understand why.  It is as if
people fear that if it can be proven that she has deliberately used
symbols and themes from Christianity in the ways of Lewis and
Tolkien that it will no longer be the same series of books that we
have all come to love. I find this puzzling.

Magpie:
Could you give an example of this not being taken well?  Because I haven't 
noticed it and it seems like you've already hinted at the reason you believe 
this is happening, which did not seem to lead to a good area.  To me it 
seems like people disagree that JKR's telling an allegory as Lewis did with 
Narnia.  They don't yet feel there's anything they can point to where they 
know, probably because the author has said so, that is based on a specific 
religious concept such as Tolkien feeling the destruction of the ring was an 
example of earned Grace. (A concept that does not work for me personally in 
the story, but I am still aware that in the author's view of the world this 
is what he has illustrated.)

Tonks:
There is a way in which she has written the
books and certain scenes in the books that can not possible be
interpreted in any other way than to say that she took it straight
from the Gospel accounts of Jesus' last days. She has disguised it
just enough so that someone not familiar with the Christian faith
would not see it. And even those who do know the story would be so
involved with the characters and story that she is telling that they
would not step back and look at the framework to see what it is that
she has done.


Magpie:
And you're actually wondering why people seem to not be happy with what 
you're saying?  Because you seem to be claiming that everybody has to just 
say this interpretation is right whether they see it or not, that the story 
is really a secret code to a different story.  Of course people aren't going 
to do that unless you actually convince them with good canon evidence and 
not just references to how they must read it.  I'm familiar with the gospels 
and I haven't read any scenes in HP that made me think the only possible 
interpretation was that it was taken out of an account of Jesus' last 
days--I've read things in Narnia and thought specifically of the Bible, but 
not HP.  And I would definitely argue with Dumbledore being based on Jesus 
because I just don't see it--the only quote I can think of from the author 
was at some point she said something about her faith informing her writing 
but "Dumbledore's not Jesus."  I don't think this has to do with whatever 
you were suggesting when you referred to formerly being an atheist.  If I 
thought Biblical allusions worked in a scene, I think I'd say so. If I 
thought "God loves us" seemed to be in the books so far, I'd say so.  Would 
I dislike the books if it ultimately said that? It would depend on how it 
was done, just like anything else.

-m