Dumbledore on the Dursleys in OotP (was:Re: Old, old problem.)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 151319

> Alla:
> 
> How do we know that Harry did not want both to be consoled AND to 
> avenge the killers? You see, I think that while we do agree on 
> Dumbledore not being a puppet master, I think we do diverge a great 
> deal in evaluation of Dumbledore in this speech. You seem to be 
> saying that Dumbledore was correct and right in saying all that he 
> said in this speech. I completely disagree with it. I may buy 
> Dumbledore not quite in control of his facilities, who while in 
> generally doing the right thing - namely telling the truth about the 
> Prophecy says plenty wrong things to Harry. I can buy this 
> Dumbledore, I am NOT buying Dumbledore who as you say "too wise" to 
> comfort Harry. I think that Dumbledore wants to comfort Harry, but 
> really is not sure how, but who is Dumbledore to decide that Harry 
> does not want comfort?
> 

Pippin:
Aragorn said it better than I could: "I speak no comfort to you, for there
is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world."  Do you 
think if her daughters had offered Arwen tea and cookies she'd have felt
better?

All that Harry has left of Sirius at that moment is the anger and the pain -- 
if he let go of those he wouldn't have anything, don't you see? 

> Alla:
> 
> Since I am not buying at all that Dumbledore was angry at Sirius ( 
> Angry for what? For loving Harry too much?

Pippin:
For ignoring the instruction to stay behind  and not trusting the rest of the 
Order to  save Harry? For making choices that would take him away from
Harry when Dumbledore had done all he could to prevent that? You see,
I don't blame Kreacher or Snape for Sirius's decision to go to the ministry.
They didn't make him do it. Sirius made, out of love for Harry, but also
maybe out of eagerness and vainglory,   a decision that would take him 
away from Harry for ever.

Alla:
 If Harry's best weapon is  love, I would think Dumbledore would be happy 
that there is one more  person here to show what love means to Harry),

Pippin:
Sometimes love means trusting others to do things you can't. 

 > Alla:
> 
> Okay, so you are saying that Dumbledore was perfectly aware of what 
> he was doing? He was not saying the wrong things because he was 
> tired and exhausted, he was doing deliberate thing - provoking Harry 
> into hurting more?
> 
> Then no, I have no sympathy for this Dumbledore. Sorry if I am 
> misunderstanding you here.

Pippin:
Why could it not be both? Dumbledore may have started out expecting
Harry to be angry at Sirius, but felt that even if Harry wasn't angry at
Sirius, it was all the more important that he not blame Kreacher for 
what happened.

He could not provoke Harry into hurting more ::fingers shaking on
keyboard:: Harry was hurting already as much as it is possible for
a human being to hurt. What Dumbledore was doing, IMO, was making
it easy for Harry to *express* his pain and anger so that it wouldn't fester 
inside him or pour itself out on the heads of people who didn't deserve it. 

If Harry started killing or hurting  people to make himself
feel better then the war would be lost and Harry along with it. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That is not a bad reason indeed, but timing IS still horrible, 
> because the only thing which IMO was important at that moment was 
> Harry, NOT Kreacher, not Dumbledore, but Harry and protecting 
> Kreacher when Harry is in such pain really does not make me respect 
> Dumbledore more.

Pippin:
Don't you see that by protecting Kreacher, Dumbledore is protecting
Harry too? Do you think Kreacher is worth Harry becoming a killer? 
 


> Alla:
> 
> And again, why cannot Harry be angry about MANY things. I think he 
> has PLENTY of reasons to be angry with Petunia and as far as I can 
> see he IS distressed over her not loving him. IMO Sirius has nothing 
> to do with that, moreover IMO Dumbledore OWED Harry to hear him out. 
> Don't you see? I will buy Dumbledore making a horrific choice to 
> leave Harry with Dursleys to save Harry's life, but in order for me 
> to buy that Dumbledore is not a Puppetmaster (and I really don't 
> think that he is, unless I am rereading this speech) I have to see 
> that Dumbledore IS sorry that he had to make this choice, that no 
> matter what he is sorry for Harry's sufferings and cutting him 
> across when Harry starts talking about those sufferings really 
> really does not help me to do so.

Pippin:
No. It's not possible for Harry to separate his angry feelings from
one another, not when he's as upset as he was just then. 

We saw that at the beginning of OOP where "he felt as though he was 
siphoning his own frustration into his cousin, the only outlet he had." 
Harry thinks he's getting revenge for fourteen years of mistreatment, 
but all his rage and helplessness over Cedric are going into it too. 

Alla:
> I mean, it is like every time in this speech Dumbledore starts 
> saying that he is sorry, he finishes  the sentence with justifying 
> himself ( not as well-fed as I liked is a great example. Duh! He was 
> starved several times, I so wanted to say get over your high horse, 
> Headmaster. :)).

Pippin:
"The Dursleys had never exactly starved Harry, but he'd never been
allowed to eat as much as he liked. Dudley had always taken anything
that he really wanted, even if it made him sick."


That's canon. I suppose that if Harry had been so badly off
that Dumbledore thought it was worse than death, he'd have let
Harry take his chances elsewhere -- it would have been like pulling
the plug on a life-support system. (And I speak as somebody who's
had to make that decision.) Dumbledore did the best he could to
keep Harry alive -- I just don't understand why he should be sorry
for it. Sorry for what, for saving Harry from the most evil wizard
who ever existed?  Sorry that he's not an all powerful fairy godfather?
Sorry that Petunia isn't a nicer person? Dumbledore isn't Petunia's
parent -- he's not responsible for the way she behaves.

But Dumbledore doesn't want to have to be ashamed of the way
*Harry* acts. He doesn't want to see him blame Petunia or Kreacher
for things that aren't their fault. Just because Harry has legitimate
reasons to be angry at Petunia does not mean that he gets to pour
out every angry feeling he has on her. 

Pippin