Dumbledore on the Dursleys in OotP (LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 151321

> > Alla:
> > 
> > How do we know that Harry did not want both to be consoled AND 
to 
> > avenge the killers? <SNIP>I think that Dumbledore wants to 
comfort Harry, but 
> > really is not sure how, but who is Dumbledore to decide that 
Harry 
> > does not want comfort?
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Aragorn said it better than I could: "I speak no comfort to you, 
for there
> is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world."  Do 
you 
> think if her daughters had offered Arwen tea and cookies she'd 
have felt
> better?
> 
> All that Harry has left of Sirius at that moment is the anger and 
the pain -- 
> if he let go of those he wouldn't have anything, don't you see? 

Alla:

No, I really don't see that. Harry is not Arwen, Aragorn is not 
Dumbledore. Let me ask you again, what right Dumbledore has to 
decide that Harry does not want comfort? If Dumbledore does not know 
how to offer it, that is one story, if Dumbledore decided that Harry 
does not want it and proceeded with it, and then well, his offense 
is worse in my book than I thought.

 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Since I am not buying at all that Dumbledore was angry at Sirius 
( 
> > Angry for what? For loving Harry too much?
> 
> Pippin:
> For ignoring the instruction to stay behind and not trusting the 
rest of the 
> Order to save Harry? For making choices that would take him away 
from
> Harry when Dumbledore had done all he could to prevent that? 

Alla:

Oh, that I buy. Because multiple reasons that were expressed for 
Dumbledore being angry at Sirius were quite different. I mistakenly 
assumed that you share them. Those were Sirius showing up in Harry's 
life, being his father figure, etc. 


Pippin:
<SNIP>
You see,
> I don't blame Kreacher or Snape for Sirius's decision to go to the 
ministry.
> They didn't make him do it. Sirius made, out of love for Harry, 
but also
> maybe out of eagerness and vainglory,   a decision that would take 
him 
> away from Harry for ever.

Alla:

Erm... you know I also don't blame Kreacher or Snape for Sirius 
desire to go to the ministry. I blame Kreacher for betraying Sirius, 
that's for sure and I think by that I award his feelings much more 
respect than Dumbledore, who claims that Kreacher is what wizards 
made him, but I don't blame Kreacher for Sirius' decision, except 
for instigating the chain of events, same thing with Snape - if 
Snape did not produce the information to Voldemort and or/Malfoys 
(namely if he lies in Spinner End), I don't blame him for Sirius 
going to MoM either. If he DID produce that information, I 
definitely blame him, but even in that situation only for that part.

 
> Pippin:
> Why could it not be both? Dumbledore may have started out expecting
> Harry to be angry at Sirius, but felt that even if Harry wasn't 
angry at
> Sirius, it was all the more important that he not blame Kreacher 
for 
> what happened.

Alla:

Pippin I am afraid I don't follow you. Please answer me one question 
and then it will be much easier for me to understand how much we 
differ. In your opinion did Dumbledore have a right to say what he 
said about Sirius or not? Was it a morally right thing to do or was 
it a wrong thing to do, but not maliciously, or was it something 
else?

Because if you say that Dumbledore was right to say what he said 
about Sirius, that he was not saying it because he was too tired and 
upset, but because he wanted to do it, then it is not Dumbledore who 
in my book deserves respect AT ALL. I can FORGIVE what Dumbledore 
said to Harry, I can never ever rationalize what he said. We all 
make mistakes, but if you argue that what Dumbledore said about 
Sirius was not a mistake, but an act that deserves respect, then I 
have to agree to disagree, because it is a great offense to Harry in 
my book at least.

 
Pippin:
> He could not provoke Harry into hurting more ::fingers shaking on
> keyboard:: Harry was hurting already as much as it is possible for
> a human being to hurt. What Dumbledore was doing, IMO, was making
> it easy for Harry to *express* his pain and anger so that it 
wouldn't fester 
> inside him or pour itself out on the heads of people who didn't 
deserve it. 

Alla:

Still don't follow you. Was Dumbledore really thinking that Sirius 
is to blame for his death and Kreacher is not to, or was Dumbledore 
pretending to think that in order to make easier for Harry to 
express his pain and anger? 

Pippin:
> If Harry started killing or hurting  people to make himself
> feel better then the war would be lost and Harry along with it. 

Alla:

Yes, indeed, I just don't see Harry in this scene going out to start 
killing people to make himself feel better.

 
> Pippin:
> Don't you see that by protecting Kreacher, Dumbledore is protecting
> Harry too? Do you think Kreacher is worth Harry becoming a killer? 

Alla:

Of course Kreacher is not worth it, but if choosing between the two, 
at that moment Harry was the one who needed Dumbledore, who needed 
his comfort and to choose that moment to protect a traitor and put a 
blame on Sirius shoulders for his death, was, well not a good 
strategy in my book.

It would have been SO easy in my book to approach Harry later and 
explain to him that Kreacher is not worth all the blame, but not 
that night, nothing can convince me that it was necessary that 
night, except of course JKR needing to explain it to us.



  
Alla:
<SNIP>
I have to see 
> > that Dumbledore IS sorry that he had to make this choice, that 
no 
> > matter what he is sorry for Harry's sufferings and cutting him 
> > across when Harry starts talking about those sufferings really 
> > really does not help me to do so.
> 
> Pippin:
> No. It's not possible for Harry to separate his angry feelings from
> one another, not when he's as upset as he was just then. 
> 
> We saw that at the beginning of OOP where "he felt as though he 
was 
> siphoning his own frustration into his cousin, the only outlet he 
had." 
> Harry thinks he's getting revenge for fourteen years of 
mistreatment, 
> but all his rage and helplessness over Cedric are going into it 
too. 

Alla:

Pippin, it is NOT up to Dumbledore to decide that Harry cannot 
express his feelings about Petunia, IMO. Whether Harry can separate 
his feelings or not, the text IMO is clear . Harry IS angry about 
Petunia. Dumbledore is the one who put him there. Put him there to 
save his life, yes, but also put him there to suffer, to experience 
dark years as Dumbledore himself says. If you don't think that 
Dumbledore owes Harry to AT LEAST hear him out, our positions are 
very very different then.

I take it you argue that Harry is not angry about Petunia at all? Is 
that correct? Are you arguing that Harry is really angry about 
Sirius and Sirius only and he is perfectly fine with how Petunia 
treated him?

I don't buy it at all. I think Harry has plenty of legitimate 
reasons to be angry with Dursleys and that it all was there and 
exploded at the end of OOP.

 
> Alla:
> > I mean, it is like every time in this speech Dumbledore starts 
> > saying that he is sorry, he finishes  the sentence with 
justifying 
> > himself ( not as well-fed as I liked is a great example. Duh! He 
was 
> > starved several times, I so wanted to say get over your high 
horse, 
> > Headmaster. :)).
> 
> Pippin:
> "The Dursleys had never exactly starved Harry, but he'd never been
> allowed to eat as much as he liked. Dudley had always taken 
anything
> that he really wanted, even if it made him sick."
> 
> 
> That's canon.

Alla:

"Three days later, the Dursleys were showing no sign of relenting 
and Harry couldn't see any way out of his situation. He lay out on 
the bed watching the sun sinking behind the bars on the window and 
wondered miserably what's going to happen to him.
******
Dobby might have saved Harry from horrible happenings at Hogwarts, 
but the way things were going, he'd probably starve to death anyway.
The cat-flap rattled and Aunt petunia hand appeared, pushing a bowl 
of canned soup into the room. Harry, whose insides were aching with 
hunger, jumped off his bed and seized it" - CoS, paperback, p.22.

One bowl of soup in THREE days is starving in my book and THAT is 
also canon.


"....after last summer Harry had not forgotten what it felt like to 
be continuously hungry" - GoF, p.348.

 
Pippin:
<SNIP>
Dumbledore did the best he could to
> keep Harry alive -- I just don't understand why he should be sorry
> for it. Sorry for what, for saving Harry from the most evil wizard
> who ever existed?  Sorry that he's not an all powerful fairy 
godfather?
> Sorry that Petunia isn't a nicer person? Dumbledore isn't Petunia's
> parent -- he's not responsible for the way she behaves.

Alla:
Not for trying to keep Harry alive, but for what Harry had to endure 
because Dumbledore made that choice. And in my book Dumbledore 
became responsible for how Petunia behaves the moment he entrusted a 
human being to her care. With the best intentions, yes, or at least 
I hope so, but the moment Dumbledore made that decision he is fully 
responsible IMO.



Pippin:
<SNIP>
Just because Harry has legitimate
> a reason to be angry at Petunia does not mean that he gets to pour
> out every angry feeling he has on her. 

Alla:

Erm... why is that? IMO it is Harry absolute right to pour out his 
very legitimate reasons to be angry at Petunia AND Kreacher. As I 
said even though Kreacher cannot be blamed for all that occurred, 
surely Kreacher is not a robot and responsible at least for his part?

> Magpie:
<SNIP>
> I have to say, these explanations for DD's words remind me of 
nothing more 
> than the explanations of how Snape picks on Neville and Harry to 
make them 
> strong for their own good, and he's only really thinking of his 
duty and 
> what's best for them.  I don't buy it.  I prefer Dumbledore just 
being an 
> ass.  (But then, I don't think it's a big change in HBP either--he 
seems 
> like the same guy there to me too.)
> 
> I think both Dumbledore, like Snape, is showing his human weakness-
-but real 
> weakness.  Not being a little too tired to avoid a few faux pas as 
he makes 
> all the best decisions for Harry and tries to protect everyone, 
but 
> something a lot less flattering. 

Alla:

Hehe. You are right and if Dumbledore does that for the reasons 
Pippin argues, I would say that he is being an absolute ass, just as 
I always say that Snape is an ass for treating Harry and Neville 
this way, you know. :)

But that is why I would much prefer Dumbledore being too tired and 
upset and not making much sense and showing THAT kind of sense, 
because otherwise he IS shown in a very bad light indeed IMO.


JMO,

Alla