[HPforGrownups] Scene with likeable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince

[Irene Mikhlin]

No: HPFGUIDX 156294


--- dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > What is your definition of **their pack**
> though?
> 
> Irene: 
> > The Marauders, obviously. Plus maybe the
> Gryffindor, to a lesser 
> degree. 
> > Maybe James confined his bullying to outside of
> his own house. 
> That's at 
> > school. A "grown-up" Sirius cares for Harry and to
> a lesser 
> degree, 
> > Harry's friends.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I thought we were talking about grown-up James. Here
> is my question 
> then. Could you name **one** person excluding Snape
> who has one bad 
> word to say about grown up James?

But that's the point, we don't know anything about
grown-up James. The only fact we know - he was
prepared to die for his family - does not prove
anything about his character either way.

> Alla:
> 
> Erm... I am confused. Sirius disliked Molly and Ron
> or Molly and Ron 
> disliked him? What canon support do you have for
> that, if you don't 
> mind?

OK, likeable is a confusing word. You can be
unpleasant but still liked. Let's talk about decent.
My opinion is that James and Sirius didn't care about
being decent to the people outside of their pack.
Failing "the waitress test", you know.

Sirius didn't care about Ron being scared when he
stood by his bed with knife, or about Ron being hurt
in the Shrieking Shack. Was vicious with Molly when
she disagreed with him.
I would not normally count the Gryffindor portrait,
because to me the portrait is just an object, but
judging by reaction in Hogwarts, it's not so in the
wizarding world.

> Molly disliked Sirius or Sirius disliked her? Or was
> it more like 
> two fellow Order members fighting over the wellfare
> of the boy they 
> both loved?

I hope I clarified it above. But on top of it, I think
Molly genuinely disapproved of Sirius as well. Nothing
to do with my argument here, though.
 
> And Sirius not liking Harry, not loving him? Are you
> arguing that 
> **one** hurtful remark takes precedent over Sirius
> rushing to help 
> Harry when he needed it in GoF, when Sirius rushed
> to save Harry in 
> OOP?

Sirius loved Harry, granted. But he only liked him
when Harry was willing to behave in a way that pleased
Sirius. When Harry for once in his life didn't want to
be reckless, out came the vicious and hurtful nature.

> 
> What do you mean when you wrote Harry ""stopped
> playing by the rules 
> of the pack"? Who invented those rules?

Sirius and James, obviously. I don't think we'll get
ESE!Lupin, but Pippin's doubts about what would have
happened between Marauders if Lupin said "I don't want
to run as werewolf anymore, I'll just stay quietly in
my room" - they are quite founded, IMO.

> 
> I am sorry, I cannot buy your examples, I don't find
> them convincing 
> at all. JMHO.

Never expected otherwise. That's not why we are
talking. :-)

> Alla:
> 
> You said that they were only likeable to their pack.

I said that they only bothered to be decent,
honourable and friendly towards members of their pack.

>  
> Irene:
> > Yes, that's right. The limited number of people,
> not including 
> those 
> > James apparently hexed at will. They couldn't have
> all been 
> Snape. :-)
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Names, please? :) 

Sorry, Lily didn't bother to provide names. :-) And I
didn't know we were speaking about grown-up James
exclusively, would be difficult, what with the canon
having no information whatsoever.

Irene


	
	
		
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