Agnes (was Re: Eileen Prince & Grandma Longbottom

[abergoat]

No: HPFGUIDX 156625

Abergoat writes:
Potioncat - you took me some place interesting with Agnes - I'm now
wondering if Agnes is Filch's magical mother, the woman accused of
killing Eileen Snape. I hope you'll read through this terribly long
post to the end.

Potioncat wrote:
> I fixed it. Now we can talk about Agnes. (see subject line.) I've 
> noticed lately that fewer and fewer list members are getting my 
> jokes. I suppose I'll have to start using smileys.  ;-)

Abergoat writes:
Great! Although I suspect I may have the thread to myself in short
order! (lol) That's way I liked to keep the Agnes idea tied to
Eileen's thread. Eileen is of little interest to people, and poor
Agnes is of even less. Sigh.

I do want to make clear that I'm open to other ideas - I certainly
don't think I have the 'answers', although I think it is a compelling
theory because there is nothing I haven't been able to answer with it.
Very little of what I post was an idea of my own and Agnes being
Eileen is not my idea. I once worked with a group of really great
people on another forum and we developed all of these ideas by feeding
off on other (or reading the ideas of others and building on
them)...until we caught the interest of another group that decided
censorship was called for and started the 'you have no canon' in a
truly obnoxious way (and I mean personal way) until someone would
fight back in the same style - at which point they would promptly
object to the administrators and get the thread shutdown. It was clear
baiting - which, thankfully, I have not seen here.

JKR is a mystery writer - she didn't give the answers, she gave clues.
It would be boring to talk only about 'facts'- not to mention
brainless - because the creativity is to string these facts together
with speculation into a possible solution to the mystery. And of
course these same people are certain it is 'fact' that Aberforth
Dumbledore is the current barman...and told me I couldn't discuss any
other idea. I bet I'm going to have the last laugh on that one. I'd
bet my last dollar that the barman WAS Aberforth but after Voldemort
was through trying to extract the memory of the prophecy, Aberforth
had been turned a goat for his stubbornness...and Dumbledore asked
Order member Dearborn to step in and keep the Death Eater information
network running. That pub was too valuable to lose! JKR only says she
is proud of the goat clue, and the 'canon facts' fit a heck of a lot
better with Aberforth being the original barman but currently being a
goat. But I'm off topic...sorry.

Potioncat wrote:
> I think we have canon for Eileen being (or having been) important. I 
> think she (and possibly Tobias too) love(d) books. We can't be 
> certain that the books at Spinner's End were Eileen's, but it's a 
> good guess. 

Abergoat writes:
And guessing is all we can do until book seven. Given how JKR likes to
foreshadow things, I agree that it is a good guess - even an excellent
guess. JKR's red herrings tend to be the elephant in the room...the
obvious trap - not small things. And Mark Evans was REALLY small - TOO
small - he was nothing more than a name. Eileen Prince is a lot more
than that. We actually seem to have a fair bit of information on her:
She was a leader, she married a muggle, she (may have) had a
collection of expensive books, she (may have) had a potions book that
placed her at Hogwarts with Hagrid and she has a son that is proud to
share her blood and to use her maiden name. And JKR loves the title
HBP and says the story tied to CoS...a strong suggestion that Snape
didn't get the book used. Eileen is no Mark Evans, although I'll grant
that Agnes might be. But it still comes back to the trip to St.
Mungo's seems to have been 'necessary' per JKR's words on the fact
that she doesn't know what she would have cut out of OoP to make it
shorter. Thus far nothing from that scene has had special
significance. I'm certain there is something there...even if it isn't
Agnes.

Potioncat wrote:
> I think Hagrid trusts Snape, although I don't know why, but I think 
> if it concerns Eileen, there has to be more than that. I think it's 
> likely Snape lost one or both parents young, but then how does it 
> hold up that all those books were Eileen's? I also think his
> interest in Dark Arts had more to do with Healing than with Hexing. 

Abergoat writes:
I'm in full agreement there - I think Hagrid knews Snape very well.
Because I think Hargid invited a young (effectively orphaned) Snape to
his hut for rock biscuits the way he did Harry...out of respect for
Snape's mother, the same as he invited Harry out of fondness for
Harry's parents. I still think Snape being able to search the forest
safely in OoP (reportedly looking for Harry) when Umbridge could not
is yet another clue...suggesting Snape knows the forest creatures well
- possibly through Hagrid.

Potioncat wrote:
> Here, here's an idea and it's actually crossed my mind before. 
> Remember Marc (Mark?) Evans? JKR forgot she'd given Lily the same 
> last name? Maybe she forgot the Dogfaced lady was given the name 
> Agnes.

Abergoat writes:
I confess, if Agnes is indeed Eileen I seriously doubt JKR 'forgot'
what name she gave her although you have support in that JKR seems to
have 'forgotten' that she gave Lily the last name Evans. Or more
likely gave Lily a plain, common name and didn't think twice about
reusing it. If Agnes is someone significant then JKR wrote the scene
carefully - I think the fact Mark wasn't important was the source of
the problem. I'll admit the fact that a name was used with dog lady
suggests that I'm off on the wrong track and you are right that she
has no importance. But someone's idea about Agnes gave me the idea
that Snape went into the healing arts not for altruistic reasons (what
a whopper that would be - completely out of character) but to heal his
mother. So even if Agnes is nothing, I'm still grateful to the person
that first suggested the idea!

Potioncat wrote:
> And I would never say that something shouldn't be discussed, so if it 
> seemed like I did, I'm sorry. (Oh, in the interest of honestly, I did 
> once say something shouldn't be discussed, but I was over-ruled.)

Abergoat writes:
And I apologize if I seem 'doggedly determined' to pursue Agnes =
Eileen. Perhaps Agnes is just another family member that was around
when Voldemort attacked Eileen - possibly blamed for the death of
Eileen. Perhaps Filch is the 'son' that comes to visit Agnes as the
nurse tells us, not Severus Snape. Perhaps the memory that Harry saw
in Snape's mind was actually Agnes's memory - the memory of not being
able to protect Filch from his father's wrath over his non-magical
status. See? You just helped me figure out something I like better and
I never would have come up with it without your post. So poor Agnes
may have found herself in yet another scene where she could only watch
with horror and cower - as Voldemort attacked Eileen Snape, killed her
and then pinned the blame on the old abused woman in the room. I
cannot explain the bad transformation though...I'll think on it. I do
think Snape learned legilimens in order to legilimens Agnes - which
would be how he got one of her memories. I don't imagine the memories
of a legilimens would be entirely his own.

 I'll admit that you struck a nerve with the fanfic comment: that was
a common shot across the bow by the unpleasant posters on the other
forum. Fanfic is a story, I'm not writing a story, I'm merely
attempting to connect 'facts' together to speculate on what book seven
holds. And I thought that was one of the accepted purposes of the
forums so I get a bit testy when someone seems to say I shouldn't
write about an idea because it 'has no canon support' when I think it
has a lot...but a only lot of small things. 

The ideas I post may be (and likely are) completely wrong, but they
might give someone else an idea that is actually right.

Abergoat