DD would not make Snape take a UV (Was: RE Good Reasons for DD to die)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 156742

> > > Carol earlier, quoting herself:
> > > > What I don't understand, though, is how making an Unbreakable > 
> >>Vow could be regarded as "the ultimate gift" or why you think that
DD would wish him to make one. Surely DD wouldn't compel him against
> > > > his will.
> SNIP
> 
> > Carol, still confused about how a UV could be a "gift" and hoping
that katssirius will clarify her position
> >
Brothergib responded: 
> Firstly, I believe (as many others have also posted) that DD's 
> blackened hand is evidence that the curse on the ring is probably 
> killing DD. Therefore, it is likely DD and Snape have already
discussed the possibility that Snape could publicly execute DD (when
DD was at death's door) to prove Snape's allegiance to LV.
> 
> One could then argue that the UV is irrelevant to Snape, since he
has already agreed with DD to be his executor. The big problem with
Snape taking the UV is that it limits his options. If he is going to
kill DD anyway and therefore prove his allegiance, why make the UV at
all? Bella will trust Snape soon enough!
> 
> One possibility is that Draco is the unknown quantity here! If Snape
is to kill DD, it has to be in a very particular way. Perhaps the UV
was supposed to prove Snape's allegiance to Draco. The hope is that
Draco will take Snape into his confidence and therefore DD/Snape have
more control over the situation. If this was the case, it didn't work.
Snape spends most of HBP trying to persuade Draco to let him help.
> 
> Another (less likely) scenario is that Snape really doesn't know 
> anything about Draco's task. It always seemed strange to me that LV 
> would let Snape know that Draco was involved in a plan to kill DD. I 
> don't think LV completely trusts Snape as yet (which is why he has 
> Wormtail spying on him) so why would he risk prewarning DD. If this
is the case, then perhaps it was just a calulated risk on Snape's
part. The aim being that in making the UV he might then find out more
about Draco's task.
> 
> Finally, maybe LV ordered Snape to make the UV. A loyal DE would not 
> think twice about agreeing to a pact to help kill DD. In that case
it could be seen as the 'ultimate gift' from Snape to LV ultimately 
> leading to the death of DD (the only one LV ever feared).

Carol responds:
For the record, I wasn't talking about the UV that Snape made with
Narcissa. I was discussing katssirius's suggestion that Dumbledore had
made Snape take a *different* UV and that *this other UV* was the
basis of DD's trust in Snape. I argued that a UV was Dark Magic and
that it involved compulsion, and for both reasons was antithetical to
DD's way of doing things. Katssirius conceded this point, but argued
that DD still extracts unwilling promises from people (for example,
the one he extracted from Harry before the cave expedition) and that
he seems to have asked such a promise from Snape. (Katssirius, please
correct me if I have your position wrong--BTW, it would help if you
linked your posts to the thread rather than making new posts.) I agree
that that seems to be some such promise on Snape's part (see the
argument in the forest), but I don't think it was the basis for DD's
trust in Snape, which goes back much farther, probably to the point
when he first began spying for DD before Godric's Hollow. (I do wish
that people wouldn't take small quotes out of context, which confuses
subsequent posters. Not that I'm opposing snipping, but enough context
should be left that the intended meaning is clear. Brothergib isn't
the only one who thought I was talking about Snape's UV to Narcissa
thanks to the out-of-context snippet.)

I'm still not clear as to what katssirius meant by "ultimate gift,"
but at least she(?) explained that she was talking about the vow or
promise that Snape made to DD (the one we know about from the argument
in the forest) and not about a second UV, which we agree that DD would
not have asked Snape to make. Nor were we implying that DD would have
asked Snape to make a UV with Narcissa. (That seems to be all her own
idea, made possible by the fact that Bella had followed her to Snape's
house and could act as bonder.) We were, again, discussing a
hypothetical UV between DD and Snape, which we agree was not made
because DD would not compel someone to do his bidding using Dark
magic. (The force of his personality is another matter, as I think we
see on the tower.)

As for the points you make here, I think that Snape took the
(canonical) UV because Narcissa asked him to swear to protect and
watch over Draco, as he intended to do, anyway. Taking that particular
vow was no great risk (he was used to walking a tightrope between life
and death, anyway) and would persuade Narcissa that he was on her side
(as he was, in the sense that he wanted to protect Draco and keep him
from commiting murder or being killed) and would help to dispel the
last of Bellatrix's doubts about his loyalty to LV. (Neither of them
was likely to tell Voldemort, who would not approve of their going
behind his back to protect Draco.) The third provision obviously
caught Snape by surprise (the hand twitch), but since he was on his
knees with his wand hand bound by ropes of fire to Narcissa's, there
wasn't much he could do except agree to it. (I believe that he told DD
about all three provisions but am not going to argue that here.)

Carol, hoping that the altered thread title will help posters to see
the point that she was actually trying to make