Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 157050

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" <sydpad at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Renee:
> > Austens characters, notably Elizabeth Bennett - though not Lydia, of
> > course - have doubts about Wickham even before they find out what kind
> > of man he really is;
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> Okay, this is reducing me to netspeak but OMG NO THEY DONT!!  I had to
> correct someone on this off-site because it seemed off-topic, but it
> seems the error has been allowed to spread. 
> 
> The ONLY person who expresses any doubt at all at Wickham's story is
> Jane, who only does so because she wants to make everyone come out
> good and so proposes some sort of misunderstanding. Every single other
> person not personally involved with Darcy's circle-- INCLUDING
> Elizabeth-- 100% takes Wickham's side and thinks he's a fabulous guy.   
> 

Renee:
Okay. I plead guilty to not consulting the book, only my - apparently
failing - memory of several dramatisations, and of one person on this
list who also wrote Elizabeth had her doubts. Furthermore, I thought
Pippins remark about "what the characters say as they try to dismiss
their concerns about Wickham" confirmed that more than one person
voiced such concerns.

So I was wrong about Elizabeth. But even if it's only Jane (and to a
very mild degree mr. Bennett, as Houynhnhm writes), this is still one
more person than in the HP series - for if Darcy and his friends are
dismissed, Snape should be dismissed too - both parties are `the
enemy'. What's more, Snape's most serious accusation against Lupin
turns out to be incorrect, which can't be said of Darcy's accusation
against Wickham.

Unless nobody except Darcy & friends ever has doubts about Wickham,
the general argument still holds, I think. 


> Sydney:
> 
> I'm sorry both for the massive quotage and the massive snippage, but
> if people are going to use Pride and Prejudice to support their
> arguments-- and you know who you are-- they should probably read the
> book.  And stop accusing those of us who have-- who in fact have
> practically memorized it-- of being influenced by external sources. 

Renee:
Eh, are you still addressing me? I can't remember having done so (but
see above concerning my memory).  
> 
> 
> Renee, previously:
> 
> >the situation in the HP series is different. The
> > only person who voices any concerns about Lupin's personality *in the
> > series* is Snape (I refuse to count Umbridge) - and once he knows
> > Lupin wasn't helping Sirius to get into Hogwarts, all he does is
> > calling Tonks's werewolf!Lupin Patronus weak. And I wouldn't call
> > Snape a reliable witness when it comes to giving testimony about the
> > Marauders.
> 
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> Really?  As it turns out, Snape was right about James being arrogant
> and strutting around the school.  He was right about Lupin being 
> weak as well-- as Lupin himself agrees. And while Lupin wasn't
actively > helping Sirius, he was (oh-so-Lupin!) passively helping, by
> withholding the information about the Animagus transformation and,
> even worse, the secret passages they both knew about.

Renee:
But he was wrong about Lupin's motives and his reasons for going to
the Shrieking Shack, he was wrong about Sirius, he was wrong about
James using Sirius as a Secret-Keeper. His tendency to judge without
having all the facts also makes him an unreliable witness (a bit like
Harry, actually). In addition to that, if a witness is known to hate
the accused, he will not be considered impartial and his evidence will
be weighed accordingly. In short, he's a much more unreliable witness
than Darcy turns ot to be. 

> 
> Renee, previously:
> 
> > Any other doubts about Lupin are voiced by *readers*, not
> > by the HP characters. So the situation can't really be compared to
the one in Pride and Prejudice.  
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> See above.. uh, yes it can.  It totally can. 

Renee:
I still don't think so (also, see above). 
> 
>  
> Sydney:
> 
> 
> I don't think I can jump on that [=ESE!LupIn] bandwagon, mostly, I
have to admit,
> on account of the Alchemical theory of the series' structure, which  I
> don't even really understand.  But it WAS used to predict Lupin and
> Tonks getting together, which for me came from Outer Space, so I have
> a lot of respect for it.  Under that scheme, Lupin stands for worldly
> niceness, or something like that, in which case his
> passive-nice-but-ineffectual thing fits perfectly.

Renee:
Ha! Someone who doesn't dismiss the alchemy theory. But according to
this theory, Lupin/Tonks requires Snape to be married to an old woman,
and I still wonder who that might be. Especially as JKR has said that
information about teachers' mariages is restricted.  
  
> -- Sydney, who wonders if the "Elizabeth liked Darcy and was
> suspicious of Wickham all along" thing comes from the fine Laurence
> Olivier/Greer Garson movie, which does take some liberties...

Renee:
Are you very surprised if I tell you I saw that one, too, once upon a
time?