Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 157084

Renne:

> So I was wrong about Elizabeth. But even if it's only Jane (and to a
> very mild degree mr. Bennett, as Houynhnhm writes), this is still one
> more person than in the HP series - for if Darcy and his friends are
> dismissed, Snape should be dismissed too - both parties are `the
> enemy'. What's more, Snape's most serious accusation against Lupin
> turns out to be incorrect, which can't be said of Darcy's accusation
> against Wickham.
>
> Unless nobody except Darcy & friends ever has doubts about Wickham,
> the general argument still holds, I think.

Sydney:

Jane does not have 'doubts' about Wickham.  Jane wants to think
everyone in the world is good and nice.  What she proposes is not that
Wickham is suspect, but that somehow he had an innocent
misunderstanding with Darcy (a view she persists in for a while even
after hearing the truth!).  Mr. Bennet gets one line which suggests
that Wickham dwells a bit too much on his misfortunes, but he does not
actively doubt them, and as he's presented as the 'cynic' character
who thinks the worst of everyone I would class him with Peeves calling
Lupin 'loony'.

How does the 'general argument still stand'?  It's wrong on facts. It
does not stand.  It falls.  Of course you can still argue that the
analogy does not apply for other reasons-- because you don't see Lupin
fulfilling the same role in the book as Wickham, perhaps-- but based
on the state of play of people's perceptions, I think the comparison
is valid.

As for whether Snape's most serious accusation about Lupin is
mistaken.. well, obviously the ESE argument relies on us not actually
knowing YET what Lupin's motives and actions are!   


> > Sydney:
> >
> > I'm sorry both for the massive quotage and the massive snippage, but
> > if people are going to use Pride and Prejudice to support their
> > arguments-- and you know who you are-- they should probably read the
> > book.  And stop accusing those of us who have-- who in fact have
> > practically memorized it-- of being influenced by external sources.
>
> Renee:
> Eh, are you still addressing me? I can't remember having done so   


Sydney:

No, I wasn't addressing you!  :)  I was addressing Neri, who is the
source of the orignal mistake, and who most unwisely insinuated that
those of us who had the plot right were getting it from the movies. 
Several times.  *humph*!


> Renee:
> But he was wrong about Lupin's motives and his reasons for going to
> the Shrieking Shack, he was wrong about Sirius, he was wrong about
> James using Sirius as a Secret-Keeper.


Sydney:

Actually, James did use Sirius as his SK.  He switched to Peter, but
Sirius was the original one.  See above for Lupin's motives-- he could
still be lying.


Renee:

 His tendency to judge without
> having all the facts also makes him an unreliable witness (a bit like
> Harry, actually). In addition to that, if a witness is known to hate
> the accused, he will not be considered impartial and his evidence will
> be weighed accordingly. In short, he's a much more unreliable witness
> than Darcy turns ot to be.

Sydney:

I think Snape is a LOT like Harry, something that the book brings up
repeatedly.  I don't think Lupin is ESE and Snape is wrong on this
point (as Darcy is wrong about Jane's feelings for Bingley, a
situation about which he is biased).  So I'm only correcting the stuff
about Wickham because, well, I really love that book and hate seeing
the plot mangled!

I DO think there is a strong structural similarity between the
Darcy/Elizabeth situation and the Snape/Harry situation (NOT, lord
help us, on a romantic level!)  Critics often remark that in a way,
the story of P&P is over when the book is halfway through-- when
Elizabeth reads Darcy's letter and corrects her perceptions.  The rest
of the plot is the melodrama necessary to bring them together as a
couple.  If you remove the second half there's a lot of similarities,
as I detailed in poast no. 155571.  Hey, I wonder if Harry will visit
Spinner's End in book VII, like Elizabeth went to Pemberley!  *fantasizes*


> Renee:
> Ha! Someone who doesn't dismiss the alchemy theory. But according to
> this theory, Lupin/Tonks requires Snape to be married to an old woman,
> and I still wonder who that might be. Especially as JKR has said that
> information about teachers' mariages is restricted.  

Sydney:

See, I wonder if the 'old woman' paired with Snape isn't McGonnegal? 
They're not married (as far as I know! *eyes them suspiciously*), but
they often appear paired and she seems like one of the few people
Snape is comfortable with.  So it could work symbolically.

 
> > -- Sydney, who wonders if the "Elizabeth liked Darcy and was
> > suspicious of Wickham all along" thing comes from the fine Laurence
> > Olivier/Greer Garson movie, which does take some liberties...
>
> Renee:
> Are you very surprised if I tell you I saw that one, too, once upon a
> time?

Sydney:

Still a great film!  I think most adaptions salt in some early
attraction to Darcy to amp up the romance, and have insufficient
respect for their audiences to let the Wickham thing go without more
anvil-sized hints.  

-- Sydney