[HPforGrownups] Re:long laundry list of reasons for ESE!Snape

[fair wynn]

No: HPFGUIDX 157106


>
>Aussie:
>Point taken.
>Sirius didn't invite Snape to eat.

>Snape didn't look to be invited.

wynnleaf
Your point being?  It would have been sooo rude to invite himself for 
dinner.

>So which occation are we talking about here? About the time Snape is
>in the meeting and everyone goes to the dining room excpt Snape (and
>McGonagall to visit Figgy)?

wynnleaf
It doesn't make any difference which occasion.  There's no occasion where 
Sirius invites him, or Snape refuses an invitation.  Oh, I get it.  This is 
a segue into "list of reasons Snape is evil," right?

aussie
I have yet to see any "cannon evidence" that
>Snape did anything with DD or the OOTP as his motive.

wynnleaf,
At which point you follow with a long laundry list of your reasons.  Just 
exactly what do you want?  An individual discussion on each point?  Or a 
mega-argument?  Or is this just an "I don't like him - so *there*!" kind of 
list?

The group here has recently discussed the MOM battle and we've already gone 
over the "why it's so incredibly obvious that Snape should have been at the 
battle" argument -- which just leaves us with an incredibly dim-witted DD, 
who seemed to think Snape's decisions made sense.  Honestly, if DD is this 
dense, I don't know why Harry is going to bother searching for horcruxes 
just on DD's word.

And then there's the ever-popular "how Snape heard so much more at the 
Shrieking Shack than we thought, because he hung out in the hall and 
listened before he came in."  Yep, seen that one, too.  Makes you wonder why 
Snape risked anyone noticing him and entered the room when he did.  Could 
have just stayed outside the door until he was ready to reveal himself -- 
after all, according to this theory, he'd already been there awhile.

aussie
>Almost, but not quite, evidence may be:
>- Occlemancy classes for Harry (but they failed)
>- Snape stopping the curse on DD's hand (but not 100% cured)

wynnleaf
Notice how there's zero mention of Snape saving Harry in PS/SS, his sending 
the Order to the MOM in OOTP, his risking his life to return to LV, his 
showing the Dark Mark to Fudge, etc..  Oh, and stopping the curse on DD is 
"almost, but not quite evidence."  Hm, save the life of the leader of the 
opposition when you could just apparate away and let him die -- a great 
strategic move, isn't it?

aussie
>Damning evidence:
>- He is alive after DE's and LV quiz him

wynnleaf
Another "idiot Dumbledore" theory, since DD obviously thought that Snape 
*could* make it back alive, in spite of thinking Snape was on the side of 
the Order.  Since JKR is pretty clear that DD isn't an idiot, that's enough 
for me (not that there isn't more, of course).

aussie
>- Trying to kick Harry out of school in POA

wynnleaf
Now we've moved on to simply incorrect "evidence."  If you do a re-read, 
you'll see that Snape only ever actually made a move toward expelling Harry 
at the beginning of COS, after the flying car incident.  This is the only 
time we know when he actually suggested it to the headmaster. (In most 
schools individual teachers almost certainly couldn't expell a student 
without administrative approval.)  Even DD thought the offense could deserve 
expulsion and told Harry and Ron that if they did something like that again 
he'd have to expell them.  Other than that, Snape threatens Harry in PS/SS 
when Harry's been in the restricted section at night, and Snape (COS) 
threatens expulsion if he ever finds out (with proof) who intentionally 
started an explosion in his classroom resulting in injuries to other 
students (sounds worthy of expulsion to me, too).  Following that, including 
in POA, Snape only mentions *suspension* which is nothing nearly so major as 
expulsion, usually meaning missing 1 or more days of classes depending on 
the severity of the offense.  The notion that Snape is always trying to get 
Harry expelled is a fan/reader myth.

aussie
>I am not completely closed to the idea Snape could be good. But JKR
>may have to give him a hero's death to convince readers now.

wynnleaf
Yes, I've seen ESE!Snape readers with this opinion many times.  But 
personally, I don't think that such readers want Snape to die to convince 
them of his loyalty.  They just want him to die -- and if he disappoints 
them enough to be on the good side, they *really* want him to die.  Just my 
take on it.  JKR's managed -- without even trying -- to convince a large 
portion of her readership that Snape is on the good side.  I imagine with 
effort she could convince *almost* everyone else.

>aussie: (wondering if wynleaf is really Alan Rickman, since most of
>his quotes defend Snape)

wynnleaf
What silliness! :)  Actually, the Snape question is the most fun.  I dislike 
theorizing about Book 7 since I expect JKR to surprise all the theorists.  I 
could care less about ships.  I love to discuss Dumbledore, the Prince/Pince 
theory, Harry, and Lupin (especially whether he's good or bad -- ESELupin is 
a great theory even if I like Lupin).  Voldemort is just boring (in my 
opinion of course).

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