Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")
pippin_999
foxmoth at qnet.com
Sat Aug 19 17:58:22 UTC 2006
No: HPFGUIDX 157146
> > Pippin:
> > So much for the theory that Snape outed Lupin because he wanted
> > revenge. <g> Isn't the underlying reason for Snape's hatred supposed
> > to be his belief that Lupin was in on the attempt to murder Snape?
>
> Renee:
> Hopefully I'm not misinterpreting this, as I'm not sure I follow your
> argument here. You can very well want revenge because of a perceived
> wrong; Snape's conviction that Lupin was in on the attempt, however
> mistaken, would be more than enough to want it (Lupin's
> non-intervention in the Pensieve scene and similar episodes would be
> another motive). But I fail to see how that would make Snape a
> reliable witness. His grudge against the Marauders makes him biased.
Pippin:
Perhaps I am the one who is confused. I was discussing the reason for
Lupin's story about Snape losing the Order of Merlin. I thought your
argument was that Lupin didn't think Snape had any real grievance
against him and was primarily upset about the escape of Sirius. Lupin
supposedly wanted to conceal this in order to spare Harry's feelings. I
was pointing out that in another context you seemed to admit that
Snape did have reasons to be upset with Lupin.
Certainly we can't rely on what Snape says about the Marauders. But
though his accusations are often overblown, we can't say they're
completely groundless. Lupin *did* have something to do with
Harry's jaunt into Hogsmeade, he *was* passively helping Sirius get into
the castle, and by Lupin's own admission, Dumbledore trusted him more
than he deserved.
Lupin has an old habit of making up stories. He made up stories to
explain his absences to his friends when he was in school, and he made
up a story about Sirius learning dark arts from Voldemort (an accusation
that outraged Sirius when it came from Pettigrew) in order to justify
not revealing that Sirius was an animagus and knew about the secret
passages into the school. He seems to have made up a story about
the Order of Merlin. I don't think we can say he's a reliable witness either.
>
> > Pippin:
>
> > But alas, those who think ESE!Lupin is plausible don't like it, and
> thosewho like it don't think it's plausible. I don't really like it
> myself -- I've got no desire to see Lupin brought down --but it
fits the evidence, IMO.
>
> Renee:
> If those who like it are the people who don't like Lupin, this could
> have something to do with his perceived weakness. If you see Lupin as
> a week, passive wimp without initiative, the ESE!Lupin theory doesn't
> sound plausible, because it requires a rather different personality.
Pippin:
It's really the smarminess that turned me off Lupin as a good guy,
long before I came up with a theory that he was evil. Take this business
about the Order of Merlin. Lupin sounds as if he's being understanding,
even nobly sympathetic, and yet the effect of his words is to paint
Snape as a petty venal tyrant who retaliated for a setback to his
own ambitions by doing irreparable damage to Lupin's. Lupin's
own highly questionable behavior is made to seem beside the point even
as he admits to it. I can't consider someone who behaves like that
a hero, even a flawed one. But for a villain, it's magnificent.
Renee:
> As for fitting the evidence, in Eco's Name of the Rose, all the
> evidence fits William of Baskerville's theory about they abbey murders
> and yet he turns out to be wrong. People have been convicted based on
> evidence that fit the accuser's theory - but in some cases, this later
> turned out to be a judicial error.
Pippin:
Ye-ess, and if Harry, Sirius, Dumbledore or even Snape had presented
the reader with substantial evidence that Lupin was evil, I'd have an
excellent reason to look elsewhere for the solution to the puzzle.
But what we have is Snape's unsupported
accusation that Lupin was in on the 'joke', and Sirius's erstwhile belief
that Lupin was the spy, plus more unaccountable absences,
ambiguous statements, and dubious behavior than can be attributed to
any other character, Snape obviously excepted.
It could be a misinterpretation on my part and certainly
all of us theorists have built castles in the air on occasion, but I find
it hard to believe that all of this potentially incriminating evidence
got into the story by accident. It seems to be waiting to be
noticed, but by whom?
> Renee:
> Okay, I can see how your analysis of Lupin's fear could work. Would it
> drive him to murder?
>
> We know that Harry was ready to crucio Bellatrix, but his Crucio
> wasn't successful. We don't know whether Sirius and Lupin would have
> succeeded in killing Wormtail, so whether they were `ready' to kill
> him remains an unanswered question.
Pippin:
Hardly. If Sirius and Lupin weren't ready to kill Wormtail, then there's
no life debt between Harry and Pettigrew. Dumbledore obviously believes
they could have done it, and that's good enough for me.
Granted, Lupin was under a lot of stress that night, but it seems to be
much more associated with what Dumbledore is going to think of him
than with what Pettigrew did. He hardly asks Peter any questions.
If normal werewolves are unstable when they're not transformed, then the
whole argument for treating them the same as other wizards goes out the
window. Pettigrew was exposed, wandless, and according to Sirius had
information about other Death Eaters who hadn't been caught -- reason
enough to spare him right there, but Lupin, Order member though he is,
doesn't seem to be thinking about that -- unless he's ESE, of course. <g>
>
> Pippin:
> > If Lupin found himself helping the werewolves more than he
> > should out of a desire to be liked, Voldemort would find out. Then
> > what? Would Lupin have the courage to throw himself on Dumbledore's
> > mercy? I don't think so.
>
> Renee:
> But Lupin isn't helping the werewolves, he's trying to change their
> mind despite the fact that he has very little to offer them. Which
> makes him unpopular with them - so much for the desire to be liked.
> And if Voldemort found out what he was doing, Lupin wouldn't throw
> himself on Dumbledore's mercy, because he'd be dead.
>
Pippin:
This I don't understand. How could a genuinely compassionate
person see people starving to death and not try to help them?
And I think you underestimate Voldemort. Why should he kill
Lupin outright, when Lupin could be so useful? And why would
Lupin choose death as long as he thought he could see some
clever way out of his difficulties? Only to defy the most evil
wizard who ever existed? But Voldemort wasn't known for what
he was, even as late as when Regulus joined him, whereas the
evil of the Ministry's anti-werewolf policies would be all too
apparent.
Personally, I find a Lupin who became a Voldemort supporter
for misguided but noble reasons to be far more admirable as a
character or a human being than a smarmy weakling of a good guy.
As for the lesson to be learned, how about 'terrorism does not pay'?
Could that be what JKR wants Lupin to teach her daughter? Is one
of the 'good lessons' Lupin gives that even kind and clever people
can be caught in the web of someone like Voldemort unless they
cultivate the moral courage to resist?
Pippin
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