Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 157163

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
> 
> Lupin has an old habit of making up stories. He made up stories to
> explain his absences to his friends when he was in school, and he made
> up a story about Sirius learning dark arts from Voldemort (an accusation
> that outraged Sirius when it came from Pettigrew) in order to justify
> not revealing that Sirius was an animagus and knew about the secret
> passages into the school. He seems to have made up a story about
> the Order of Merlin. I don't think we can say he's a reliable
witness either.


Renee:
As I wrote in a previous post, the source of the OoM story is probably
Fudge, whose suggestion it was that Snape ought to be rewarded such an
Order, and who witnessed Snape's reaction to the news that Sirius had
escaped. As he wasn't there at the time, being his werewolf alter ego,
Lupin has either heard it from Fudge himself, or from DD. 

The story about Sirius learning dark arts from Voldemort is a lie
Lupin tells himself; the moment he mentions it to others, he doesn't
do so to mislead, as it's obvious he doesn't believe in Sirius's guilt
anymore.     

I could even come up with an excuse for the absence stories, because I
don't think Lupin was supposed to tell his fellow students he was a
werewolf. (DD himself encouraged the people of Hogsmeade to believe
the Shrieking Shack was haunted.) But it's true that he did make up
those stories and actually managed to mislead his dorm mates for about
a year. 


> Pippin:
> It's really the smarminess that turned me off Lupin as a good guy,
> long before I came up with a theory that he was evil. Take this business
> about the Order of Merlin. Lupin sounds as if he's being understanding,
> even nobly sympathetic, and yet the effect of his words is to paint
> Snape as a petty venal tyrant who retaliated for a setback to his
> own ambitions by doing irreparable damage to Lupin's. Lupin's
> own highly questionable behavior is made to seem beside the point even
> as he admits to it. I can't consider someone who behaves like that
> a hero, even a flawed one. But for a villain, it's magnificent. 

Renee:
The problem is, that it's Harry, the POV character, who considers it
beside the point - he's the one who doesn't question Lupin, not even
when Lupin blames himself. You can't blame Lupin for Harry's
perception. As for painting Snape as a petty venal tyrant etc., - why
shouldn't he? That's precisely what Snape *is* at that moment. There
is an element of retaliation in Snape's outing of Lupin, whatever else
is behind it. 

I agree with you that Lupin is no hero. But that doesn't mean he's a
villain. With all his flaws *and* good points, he's exceedingly human
- one of the most human characters in the series. Ironical, seeing
that he's a werewolf. But I'm sure the irony is intentional on JKR's
part.     

 
> Pippin:
> 
> Granted, Lupin was under a lot of stress that night, but it seems to be
> much more associated  with what Dumbledore is going to think of him
> than with what Pettigrew did. He hardly asks Peter any questions. 

Renee:
No - the scene is long enough as it is :), and we've got Peters
statement `He was going to win' - that's the whole explanation in a
nutshell. Peter merely sided with the biggest bully again - his life's
story (though I actually hope it will end on a more positive note).
But if you think discovering that you weren't only robbed of all your
friends at once but duped into blaming the wrong person for thirteen
years isn't highly upsetting, or that it won't make you hate the real
traitor to distraction, there's probably no way I can convince you.


Pippin: 
> If normal werewolves are unstable when they're not transformed, then the
> whole argument for treating them the same as other wizards goes out the 
> window. 

Renee:
They're only a bit unstable shortly before a transformation. In the
Pensieve scene, Harry notices that Lupin looks pale and peaky and
wonders if the full moon is approaching. I'm sure this is JKRs way of
giving us a bit more information about werewolves. But it's probably
nothing that can't be treated by Wolfsbane (if they take it, that is...) 


Pippin:
Pettigrew was exposed,  wandless, and according to Sirius had
> information about other Death Eaters who hadn't been caught -- reason
> enough to spare him right there, but Lupin, Order member though he is,
> doesn't seem to be thinking about that -- unless he's ESE, of
course. <g>

Renee:
As Sirius is the one who mentions the informating, it seems more
remarkable that *he* isn't thinking of it. (No, I'm not going into
ESE!Sirius. That was Kneasy.)


> > Renee:
> > But Lupin isn't helping the werewolves, he's trying to change their
> > mind despite the fact that he has very little to offer them. Which
> > makes him unpopular with them - so much for the desire to be liked.
> > And if Voldemort found out what he was doing, Lupin wouldn't throw
> > himself on Dumbledore's mercy, because he'd be dead.
> >
> 
> Pippin:
> This I don't understand. How could a genuinely compassionate 
> person see people starving to death and not try to help them? 

Renee:
Because Lupin himself is starving, too, once he comes to live with the
other werewolves? And if you present yourself in the werewolf
community as someone who's had it with the WW, you can hardly enter
bearing gift baskets.  

Of course Voldemort would want Lupin dead, if he discovered he was
trying to turn his allies away from him. Not to mention Greyback, who
doesn't strike me as someone who likes to be thwarted either.

Pippin:
> Personally, I find  a Lupin  who became a Voldemort supporter
> for misguided but noble reasons to be far more admirable as a 
> character or a human being than  a smarmy weakling of a good guy. 

Renee:
Well, I prefer to think he's too clever not to understand Voldemort is
merely using the werewolves to his own advantage. 


Pippin:
> As for the lesson to be learned, how about 'terrorism does not pay'? 
> Could  that be what JKR wants Lupin to teach her daughter? Is one
> of the 'good lessons'  Lupin gives that even kind and clever people 
> can be caught in the web of someone like Voldemort unless they
> cultivate the moral courage to resist?

Renee:
That would be teaching by bad example. I very much doubt this is what
JKR had in mind when she made that statement. The question was: "If
you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your child, who
would it be and why?" Her answer: "It would be Professor Lupin,
because he is kind, clever, and gives very interesting lessons." I
don't think this leaves much room for your interpretation, which seems
to need the word `something' behind the verb `teach' to be meaningful.