Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 157178


> Renee:
 
> The story about Sirius learning dark arts from Voldemort is a lie
> Lupin tells himself; the moment he mentions it to others, he doesn't
> do so to mislead, as it's obvious he doesn't believe in Sirius's guilt
> anymore.    

Pippin:
Yes. Lupin lied to himself about one of his oldest friends in order
to avoid revealing his own guilt , which at least makes it plausible 
that he could lie to himself about Voldemort for the same reason.

> > Pippin:
> > It's really the smarminess that turned me off Lupin as a good guy,
> > long before I came up with a theory that he was evil. Take this business
> > about the Order of Merlin. Lupin sounds as if he's being understanding,
> > even nobly sympathetic, and yet the effect of his words is to paint
> > Snape as a petty venal tyrant who retaliated for a setback to his
> > own ambitions by doing irreparable damage to Lupin's. Lupin's
> > own highly questionable behavior is made to seem beside the point even
> > as he admits to it. I can't consider someone who behaves like that
> > a hero, even a flawed one. But for a villain, it's magnificent. 
> 
> Renee:
> The problem is, that it's Harry, the POV character, who considers it
> beside the point - he's the one who doesn't question Lupin, not even
> when Lupin blames himself. You can't blame Lupin for Harry's
> perception. 

Pippin:
Oh but I can. Lupin is an expert on the presentation of information.
He knows all about spin. Just take that whole paragraph about Snape
out, and see how Lupin's explanation reads (paraphrasing because
my canon is boxed up at the moment) "They will not want someone
like me teaching their children. And after last night I  see their
point. I might have bitten any one of you. That must never happen 
again." Now it's the attitude towards werewolves in general that
seems tragically beside the point. 

Hagrid was roaring drunk that night. If alcoholism caused him to
misbehave, that would be pitiable, but it wouldn't excuse him from
the consequences.  If he'd threatened three children,
attacked the person who was trying to subdue him, and run raving
into the forest, do you think he'd still have had prospects as a teacher
 in the morning? That the parents would object anyway because he's half
giant is neither here nor there.

I notice neither one of us is taking seriously Lupin's indication that
Snape's revelation was accidental. More smarm, IMO. Snape isn't Lupin's
colleague any more, and Lupin has a  right to speak his mind
about him plainly if he cares to. But he'd rather sound as if he's
taking care for Snape's reputation while doing nothing of the kind.

Renee:
> I agree with you that Lupin is no hero. But that doesn't mean he's a
> villain. With all his flaws *and* good points, he's exceedingly human
> - one of the most human characters in the series. Ironical, seeing
> that he's a werewolf. But I'm sure the irony is intentional on JKR's
> part.     
> 

Pippin:
Who says it's not human to be evil? 

>  
> > Pippin:
> > 
> > Granted, Lupin was under a lot of stress that night, but it seems to be
> > much more associated  with what Dumbledore is going to think of him
> > than with what Pettigrew did. He hardly asks Peter any questions. 
> 
> Renee:
> No - the scene is long enough as it is :), and we've got Peters
> statement `He was going to win' - that's the whole explanation in a
> nutshell. Peter merely sided with the biggest bully again - his life's
> story (though I actually hope it will end on a more positive note).
> But if you think discovering that you weren't only robbed of all your
> friends at once but duped into blaming the wrong person for thirteen
> years isn't highly upsetting, or that it won't make you hate the real
> traitor to distraction, there's probably no way I can convince you.


Pippin:
"Nobody's going to kill you until we've straightened a few things out."
(or words to that effect.)  Lupin's not so upset as all that. 

> 
> 
> Pippin: 
> > If normal werewolves are unstable when they're not transformed, then the
> > whole argument for treating them the same as other wizards goes out the 
> > window. 
> 
> Renee:
> They're only a bit unstable shortly before a transformation. In the
> Pensieve scene, Harry notices that Lupin looks pale and peaky and
> wonders if the full moon is approaching. I'm sure this is JKRs way of
> giving us a bit more information about werewolves. But it's probably
> nothing that can't be treated by Wolfsbane (if they take it, that is...) 

Pippin:
Pale and peaky during OWLS? Gosh, I wonder why <g> Harry learns that
full moon is, in fact, not approaching, because Sirius wishes that it was.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Pettigrew was exposed,  wandless, and according to Sirius had
> > information about other Death Eaters who hadn't been caught -- reason
> > enough to spare him right there, but Lupin, Order member though he is,
> > doesn't seem to be thinking about that -- unless he's ESE, of
> course. <g>
> 
> Renee:
> As Sirius is the one who mentions the informating, it seems more
> remarkable that *he* isn't thinking of it. (No, I'm not going into
> ESE!Sirius. That was Kneasy.)

Pippin:
Sirius is distracted. I'll grant you that. He wants Pettigrew dead on the
spot. It's Lupin who says that they have to straighten some stuff out.
But it doesn't appear to be about Pettigrew. Nobody's interested in 
how he managed to kill so many Muggles with a single spell, or how
he kept his spying hidden from Dumbledore, or who his contacts
were. No, what Lupin seems to be interested in, besides establishing
himself as a great friend of Sirius and James in the old days, is how
Sirius came to believe that Pettigrew was guilty.

 
> > > Renee:
> > > But Lupin isn't helping the werewolves, he's trying to change their
> > > mind despite the fact that he has very little to offer them. Which
> > > makes him unpopular with them - so much for the desire to be liked.
> > > And if Voldemort found out what he was doing, Lupin wouldn't throw
> > > himself on Dumbledore's mercy, because he'd be dead.
> > >
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > This I don't understand. How could a genuinely compassionate 
> > person see people starving to death and not try to help them? 
> 
> Renee:
> Because Lupin himself is starving, too, once he comes to live with the
> other werewolves? And if you present yourself in the werewolf
> community as someone who's had it with the WW, you can hardly enter
> bearing gift baskets.  

Pippin:
But if he's presenting himself as someone who's had it with the WW,
then he isn't trying to change their minds. Anyway, that's not his
mission. He's not sent as Dumbledore's envoy. He's there in disguise,
as a *spy*. He's supposed to be getting information, probably proof
of Voldemort's criminal activities, if the spying started in the days
when Voldemort was still presenting himself as legit. Of course
he'd have to argue against criminal means or he'd be guilty of
entrapment. And the werewolves would have argued back, with
passion which is so much more convincing than reasoned argument.
Lupin wouldn't be human if he didn't have doubts about what he
was doing.

I'd wonder about the morality of anyone who *wouldn't*
steal to help feed a starving child. But things are never simple,
even in the Potterverse. Sometimes the werewolves kill.
It'd be so easy for Lupin to  compromise himself, and once he did, 
well he'd be easy prey for Voldemort. Greyback would be all for 
killing him, of course. But Voldemort would be for keeping him 
alive and making him useful.


> Renee:
> Well, I prefer to think he's too clever not to understand Voldemort is
> merely using the werewolves to his own advantage. 

Pippin:
Hepzibah and Slughorn were clever, and it didn't save them. Their
desire to be liked was their undoing. 

> 
> Pippin:
> > As for the lesson to be learned, how about 'terrorism does not pay'? 
> > Could  that be what JKR wants Lupin to teach her daughter? Is one
> > of the 'good lessons'  Lupin gives that even kind and clever people 
> > can be caught in the web of someone like Voldemort unless they
> > cultivate the moral courage to resist?
> 
> Renee:
> That would be teaching by bad example.

Pippin:
Which JKR loves to do. We see a lot more bad teachers in the books
than good ones, a lot more unhappy families than happy ones.

Pippin