Voldemort killed personally?

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 157166





Carol in post 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/157153 responded 
to Geoff:

>snipped<

Geoff:
> Regarding moaning Myrtle, surely the Basilisk killed her, according
to her own testimony in COS. <snip>

Carol:
Nonetheless, I do consider it murder, as Diary!Tom himself does (see
below), just as it would be murder if he'd released a deadly snake
into a teacher's office knowing that the teacher was in there and the
snake had fatally bitten the teacher--or even more so, since the
Basilisk was under his command (see below).

Snow:

To make my point I must reference Carol's post to Eddie: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/157156

>snipped<

Eddie:
> Using the Priori Incantatem from Harry's duel with Voldemort in 
Goblet
> of Fire as canon we get (in chronological order):
> - James Potter
> - Lily Potter
> - Bertha Jorkins
> - Frank Bryce
> - Cedric Diggory

Carol responds:
That doesn't quite work because we know that LV didn't kill Cedric
personally. He ordered Wormtail to do it ("Kill the spare!"), which
Wormtail did, using Voldemort's wand. so it's possible that Wormtail
also killed Bertha Jorkins on Voldemort's orders.

Snow:

This sounds a bit contradictory – or did you mean something else? 

Both victims are being killed on orders. The Basilisk has its orders 
to kill muggleborns via its master, and Wormtail on Orders killed 
Cedric. 

Myrtle may not have been selected personally but overall she is said 
to be a muggleborn and at that time young Tom was out to fulfill the 
noble work that was started by Slytherin; or so Diary!Tom claimed 
when he told Harry that he was no longer interested in killing 
muggles that his new target was Harry. 
>From this I take it that young Tom did release the Basilisk with 
instructions to kill muggleborns. Myrtle was attacked but not 
directly by Tom; Cedric was attacked but not directly by Baby!Mort.
 
I would like to refer to Leah's post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/157145 since she 
appears to be thinking along the same lines as myself :)

Leah:

Long reply to a short but interesting question. I was trying to
work this one out the other day, and see if the deaths correlated
with the horcruxes or supposed horcruxes and also which of the
personal victims could be said to have been murdered, as against,
for example, killed in battle. I got to: Tom Riddle Snr; Riddle
grandfather; Riddle grandmother; Lily Potter; Frank Byrce, as the
people we can say with some certainty that VM killed with a personal
AK. That's five.

>snipped<

I then tried to link the deaths with horcruxes. We are told by
Slughorn that murder is necessary to split the soul in order to
form a horcrux. We have the diary, ring and locket horcruxes.
These are objects which link VM with Slytherin. The diary reveals
that he is the Heir, while the ring and locket are Slytherin/Gaunt
heirlooms. It seems logical to me both symbolically and in terms of
timing that VM would use the murders of his despised muggle
ancestors to make these horcruxes. Then there is the cup horcrux.
The logical assumption as already said is that this was made with
the murder of Hepzibah Smith. We don't have a death for the
Ravenclaw horcrux, so I nominate the mysterious Dorcas for that as
the timing fits in.

Snow:

Since you've brought up the matter of linking each Horcrux to the 
death Voldemort found to be important (Sirius stating that he didn't 
think Regulus was important enough
), I thought I would try to help 
connect them. 

The first three murders we know for sure that Tom committed were 
those of his two grandparents and his father (all of these murders 
were blamed on his uncle which becomes important in a second). 

I agree with you Leah in your choice of the three items that were 
used from these three murders.

So we have, so far:

Pap –Ring
Ma – Locket
Dad- Diary

We continue with the next victim, who was Hepzibah (I think) whose 
death was blamed on a house elf, Hokey, much like the first three 
deaths were blamed on the Uncle. The deaths were blamed in the same 
way; the Uncle believed that he killed the three Riddles and Hokey 
believed she poisoned the old lady when in fact they were both 
altered to believe what Riddle wanted them to believe. 

Let's add to the list:

Hepzibah- cup, which is a Hufflepuff heirloom 
(tidbit that Zacharias is a Smith and is from Hufflepuff house). 

We now have Dorcas Meadowe's that we can fairly be sure, according to 
Mad Eye Moody, was directly killed by Voldemort. We don't know 
anything about Dorcas and there have not been any of her kin 
mentioned, we might have to use deduction and say that she is the 
Ravenclaw item.

So let's just add:

Dorcas- Ravenclaw heirloom (for some reason I want to say that tiara 
in the ROR, don't know why)

This would be five deaths directly killed by Voldemort and four of 
them, for sure, are unarmed. :)

The problem that I am having now is that we are up to the night of 
Godric's Hollow and only have five (as far as I can see) definite 
direct deaths at the hand of Voldemort. Dumbledore claimed that 
Voldemort wanted to make the last Horcrux with Harry so we are one 
death short I would think. Unless Voldemort wanted seven portions of 
soul, which would include his own, but that would mean that he only 
needed five containers and five deaths to make five Horcruxes before 
the Hollow. Harry would be his sixth and final Horcrux meaning that 
the one remaining in Voldemort would be the final seventh portion. 

This scenario would pose a very big problem with what Dumbledore 
surmised wouldn't it or would it? 

Dumbledore said that there was the:

Ring
Locket
Diary
Cup
 
Leaving something from Ravenclaw and Gryffindore. If Dorcas' death 
were Ravenclaw then Harry's death would have been meant for the 
Gryffindore Heirloom. 

The list would then be thus:

Pap –Ring
Ma – Locket
Dad – Diary
Hepzibah – Cup
Dorcas – Ravenclaw Heirloom
Harry – Intended Gryffindore Heirloom

This would actually represent seven equal parts of the soul since 
Voldemort needs a piece for himself. 

The Voldemort agenda didn't go as planned and, if you need an unarmed 
person to cause the soul to split :), Lily's death secured the final 
split. This represents six splits, to my way of thought, before he 
attempted the AK of Harry. 

We know through the many times that Dumbledore has stated that there 
is without a doubt a connection between Voldemort and Harry [besides 
their wands :) ]. In fact Dumbledore says in OOP pg. 826 that he had 
suspected it from the time Voldemort attempted to kill Harry:

"I guessed, fifteen years ago, " said Dumbledore, "when I saw the 
scar upon your forehead, what it might mean. I guessed that it might 
be the sign of a connection forged between you and Voldemort."

This forged-connection was suspected and yet Dumbledore never states 
this evidence in his scenario with Harry about the suspected 
Horcruxes. Did Dumbledore not know that this could be a factor or was 
Dumbledore unable to tell Harry this suspicion in reference to his 
portrayal of the possible Horcruxes? This might even be seen as 
evidence that Harry is not a Horcrux, but that would not conclude 
that my previous (in another post) claim, wherein, Harry did receive 
a portion of Voldy soul all the same become false. In fact just the 
opposite, this claim supports it. 

Dumbledore knew that there was a "forge" between the two and (a bit 
of suspicion on my part) that the-greatest-wizard-who-ever-lived was 
also aware of the mechanics involved in making a Horcrux, plus an old 
man's admitted tenderness to one so young could be the result of 
Dumbledore's explanation to Harry. This is not to say the old boy was 
lying (anymore than the creator), it's more the evasive yet optional 
conclusions left to Harry and his reader. 

For the focus of this conversation I will claim that Voldemort 
fulfilled his intentional destiny, which was to split his soul into 
seven at Godric's Hollow; there were seven pieces of soul after 
Lily's death, one residing with Voldemort. 

All deaths that occurred at Voldemort's hand after his rebirth may be 
insignificant after his rebirth. First off, can you split the soul 
once a Horcrux (or portion of the soul) has been destroyed? The Diary 
was already destroyed before the rebirthing. If the soul cannot be 
seen (metaphorically) as whole anymore then how can it further be 
split?

Ok, My head hurts
going to relax the muscle.

Snow