ACID POPS and Teenager Draco/ some LOLLIPOPS

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 157573

> Neri:
<SNIP>
What I
> meant was more *what kind* of relationship is the Snape-Harry
> relationship, in the literary sense?
<HUGE SNIP>
> So, in what sense did the Snape-Harry relationship developed from 
the
> beginning of the series? What did it contribute to the development 
of
> Harry's character? Well, there is certainly some development: in 
the
> beginning of the series Harry hated Snape, and now he REALLY REALLY
> hates Snape. The tension has certainly been raised, but how has 
this
> relationship actually developed over six long books? How much have
> they actually come to know each other? To change each other? Not 
much
> that I see.

Alla:

Oooo, that makes perfect sense to me, Neri. Thank you. I am totally 
with you on this one - Harry and Snape certainly do not seem to be 
changing each other. In fact I think that as someone who used to see 
**something** positive in Snape, I was so very dissapointed after 
GoF that even after Snape was present in the hospital wing, all we 
got was more Harry's hate from him.

But I suppose the argument is that this relationship will play out 
to change Harry in book 7 - namely that Harry will have to forgive 
Severus dear. And that would be the lesson for Harry - forgive your 
enemies or if Snape is good, learn to recognise your friends, since 
even not nice people can be good ( although as someome recently 
remarked, I also could never understand why this kind of message is 
not considered to be moralistic clishe as well)


Neri:
> Well, there's this scenario that the Snape fans dream about since 
Book
> 1: that Harry and Snape will be forced to work together as a team 
and
> cooperate in achieving their common goal. <snip>There's only one
> problem with this scenario – this kind of literary relationship
> development takes time and careful building by the Author if she 
means
> to do it right and make it convincing.

Alla:

Am guilty of that Neri :) ( everybody is free to believe it or not, 
but I wished for that after GoF - with the heavy emphasis of course 
on Snape realising what a good kid Harry is, hehe) But was cured, 
honestly. ;)



> OK, so lets look at an alternative LOLLIPOPS scenario, a much 
shorter
> one: Snape saves Harry and is killed in the process, but in his 
last
> breath he reveals to Harry that he had always loved his mother, and
> maybe even asks for forgiveness (or not). Harry regrets all the
> terrible things he ever said to Snape, etc, etc, etc. So how does 
this
> make the relationship between them central? It has ended 20 seconds
> after they came to know each other.

Alla:

Heee, supposedly that is the culminating point and that would make 
profound impact on Harry's future life - that to forgive is better 
than hate,etc,etc, etc ( not that I like it much).



Neri:
> So in what sense is Snape *really* central in the HP series? He's 
not
> a central character in the sense of HRH, and the feelings between 
him
> and Harry, while very violent and of huge importance to the plot,
> hardly amount to a relationship in the deep literary sense. But 
Snape
> is most definitely a central *mystery* of the HP series. Isn't this
> why we are all obsessed about him?

Alla:

Sorry, I am too excited and so hope that after I reread my post it 
would not look like "me too" all over and some of my staff would be 
present too, but totally - now I just want to know Snape secrets, I 
don't see any character developments from him whatsoever and I dount 
I ever will.




> 
> > Alla:
> > Because as I said in the past, yes, unfortunately I believe that 
> > LOLLIPOPS in one form or another **are** coming.
> > 
> > As somebody else wrote ( don't remember who. Magpie?)  I find 
the 
> > silence from Snape on the subject of Lily to be more and more 
> > deafening.
> >
> 
> Neri:
> I always find that kind of argument strange. If Snape *had* said
> anything about Lily the LOLLIPOPS crew would have been ecstatic 
about
> it, but since he never mentions her you find his *silence* 
suggestive.
> So it looks like you have arranged it to get support for LOLLIPOPS
> whatever JKR choose to write. This is a good example why I'm
> suspicious of LOLLIPOPS. It's a ship that seems to be built on the
> wishes of her crew regardless of canon.

Alla:

But no, no, no. That is incorrect :) Sorry.  I have never been on 
LOLLIPOPS crew, I have never never wished for this ship to come 
true. I understand what are you saying about finding the things 
which are not were to support your ship, but it is not so with me.

I will be jumping up and down with joy if LOLLIPOPS will not 
materialise, **but** it is just IMHO why would Snape who did not 
ever pass a chance to belittle Harry's dead father, would never ever 
pass a chance to belittle Harry's dead mother?

I mean, we ** know** that Snape would never pass up on hurting 
Harry, you agree? Here he has an excellent chance and this seems to 
be only about Harry and James, even when he runs, it culminates in 
**you and your filthy father**, I mean this was to me the last nail 
in **Snape just pretends to hate Harry** coffin, and still - nothing 
about your **filfy mother**. Come to think of it, would not filfy 
be  better slur for Lily?

In any event, I grudgingly see LOLLIPOPS **because** ( among some 
other things, but this is the main one) I see Snape' silence, I did 
not look for Snape silence to support LOLLIPOPS, please trust me 
when 
I say that . :)



>> Neri:
> I guess he would, so if you use LID to explain why Snape changed 
sides
> and why he keep trying saving Harry, then there's no principal 
problem
> in keeping LOLLIPOPS too. It even makes some kind of, ahem, twisted
> sense.

Alla:

Yay, count me there then. ;)

Neri:
<SNIP>
 There's still the question of the UV, though. Can you
> actually stand LOLLIPOPS and ACID POPS together, or do you have
> another explanation for the UV?

Alla:

Well, Ceridwen and me were tempted couple of times to post about 
Snape and his Harem ;), so I can imagine that, I suppose, although 
prefer not to. Yuck. :)

Alla, who thanks Neri for wonderful explanation and who now worships 
his posts even more.