ACID POPS and Teenager Draco/ some LOLLIPOPS

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 157568

 
> 
> Alla:
> Neri, I would LOVE for you to be right, I think it is a great 
> possibility that Snape and Harry relationship is not a central 
> enough relationship to the story, but I am afraid that I have to say 
> that IMO it is one of the central relationships. 

Neri:
I fear we might be falling into semantics here. Is the Snape-Harry
relationship *the* central relationship in the series or just *one of*
the central relationships? This wasn't my original intention. What I
meant was more *what kind* of relationship is the Snape-Harry
relationship, in the literary sense?

Now, there's no doubt that what Snape and Harry feel about each other
has a huge importance for the plot and for the characters. But usually
when we talk about relationships in literature we mean that the
characters come to know each other and have an interaction, either
good or bad, that causes them to change and develop. An important
relationship in a story (and not surprisingly, also in RL) is
something that develops and changes, and good authors usually invests
a lot in describing the development of the important relationships in
the story and how they contribute to the development of each of the
characters.

So, in what sense did the Snape-Harry relationship developed from the
beginning of the series? What did it contribute to the development of
Harry's character? Well, there is certainly some development: in the
beginning of the series Harry hated Snape, and now he REALLY REALLY
hates Snape. The tension has certainly been raised, but how has this
relationship actually developed over six long books? How much have
they actually come to know each other? To change each other? Not much
that I see.

But what about its *potential* for Book 7? (you probably ask). So lets
look at the prospects of the Snape-Harry relationship for Book 7.
Suppose LOLLIPOPS comes true and Harry has his NOOOOOO! NOT MY
MOOOTHER! moment. Big yawn for us since we've been speculating about
it for at least 4 books, but Harry certainly would care. What then?
How does this revelation add to the development of Harry's character?
How does it develop his relationship with Snape?

Well, there's this scenario that the Snape fans dream about since Book
1: that Harry and Snape will be forced to work together as a team and
cooperate in achieving their common goal. That they will learn to
appreciate each other, each gradually realizing what a great guy the
other man actually is. Finally they will forgive each other for
everything and shake hands (with Hermione giving them both a big hug
and running out of the room positively howling). There's only one
problem with this scenario – this kind of literary relationship
development takes time and careful building by the Author if she means
to do it right and make it convincing. Unfortunately there won't be
much time in the last book of the series, with so many other items on
the menu. I personally suspect it is much too late now for this
scenario. If JKR ever had it in mind she should have started one or
two books ago. So what kind of relationship is it? It was not really
developed until now, and there's no time left to really develop it in
Book 7.

OK, so lets look at an alternative LOLLIPOPS scenario, a much shorter
one: Snape saves Harry and is killed in the process, but in his last
breath he reveals to Harry that he had always loved his mother, and
maybe even asks for forgiveness (or not). Harry regrets all the
terrible things he ever said to Snape, etc, etc, etc. So how does this
make the relationship between them central? It has ended 20 seconds
after they came to know each other.

But the TENSION between them! (I hear you protesting) it is so
PERSONAL! There's so much ANGER and it must lead to SOMETHING!

Well, of course, but what kind of something? A relationship? Not
necessarily. Any big shattering revelation or event will do. Say,
Snape saves Harry's life from Voldemort and is killed in the process.
But in his last breath (or last three thousand breathes, anyway) he
tells Harry *everything*, all his great secrets: was he DDM or ESE or
OFH or LID, whom did he really love, why did he torture Harry but
tried to save him, why did Dumbledore trust him, what was he trying to
do during the Occlumency lessons, what happened on the tower and why
did he save Harry's life. Wouldn't the solution to *all* the Snape
mysteries in a single chapter be shattering enough? Wouldn't it be
personal enough? Wouldn't it break the tension? It doesn't have to be
about relationships.

So in what sense is Snape *really* central in the HP series? He's not
a central character in the sense of HRH, and the feelings between him
and Harry, while very violent and of huge importance to the plot,
hardly amount to a relationship in the deep literary sense. But Snape
is most definitely a central *mystery* of the HP series. Isn't this
why we are all obsessed about him? Isn't this why we discuss him all
the time here? Isn't this why the whole fandom is crazy about him? He
is so mysterious, so elusive, so full of contradictions. We simply
must uncover his motivations, his loyalties, his backstory, his love
affairs, what makes him tick.

And this is also the way JKR treats Snape. In each and every book we
expect JKR to give us some significant development in Snape's
character, and she never really does. In each and every book we expect
her to develop his "relationship" with Harry, and except for further
raising of the tension nothing really develops. But in each book JKR
gives us more Snape questions, more Snape contradictions, more Snape
mysteries. Even when we get some new information on him, it's usually
not current development in the character, but flashbacks from his
past: his Pensieve memory, the Spinner's End report, his potions book,
him overhearing the prophecy. Always these meager pieces of
information raise at least as much new questions as they solve any old
ones. And always the raising of the stakes, the raising of the
tension. So it seems quite obvious to me: Snape is, first and
foremost, a *central mystery* of the HP series. And therefore the
resolution of the Snape plot will be, first and foremost, the solution
of the mystery. It doesn't have to be about relationships.

But (I hear you protesting again) this is not enough EMOTION! This is
about an intellectual solution to a riddle. Where is the BANG? HBP
ended with the biggest and most emotional BANG of the series - Snape
AKing Dumbledore off the Astronomy tower. JKR must top that in Book 7.
This is the grand finale, after all.

Well, yes of course, but who said the emotional BANG must come from
the Snape plot? And anyway, what *can* be a Snape BANG that is even
BANGier than AKing Dumbledore off the tower? The revelation of
LOLLIPOPS certainly wouldn't top that. Real BANG must be
*unpredictable*, you know. The only Snape BANG I can think of that
will be even BANGier than the tower is Snape killing Hermione and Ron
in front of Harry, and I doubt it will come to that. But we still have
the battle against Voldy, the reason for the Gleam In Dumbledore's
Eyes, the Voldy powers that were transferred to Harry, the Horcruxes,
and much more. Maybe Ron and Hermione will die by Voldemort's hand, or
maybe Harry will die. Somebody will die, anyway, we have JKR's word on
that. So there won't be any shortage of BANGs and emotion in Book 7.
If anything there might be surplus.   

So the Harry-Snape "relationship" is not central in the series and
never has been. Not in the literary sense, anyway, of characters
coming to know each other and changing each other. Yes, there has
always been a great *potential* for it to become central, but JKR
again and again chose not to make it so, and now it's probably too
late for that. Why didn't she use that great potential and made the
relationship central, you ask? Because Snape is first and foremost a
central *mystery* of the series, and a character usually can't be both
a great central mystery and a part of a central relationship. These
two things just don't work well together, by their very nature. In a
true relationship, even a negative one, characters learn to *know*
each other, so they become *less* of a mystery to each other. So JKR
had to choose, relationship or mystery, and she chose mystery. But at
least we can be sure that the Snape mystery will be solved in Book 7.


> Alla:
> Neri, I think that LID!Snape is perfectly possible, but I think I 
> asked you earlier and don't remember the answer. :) Does it work 
> with LOLLIPOPS at all or not?
> 
> You seem to be saying that LOLLIPOPS are not going to happen at all, 
> do you think it is possible to mash it with LID Snape or not?
> 

Neri:
They aren't contradicting, but do they work well together? Generally
LID!Snape answers all the Snape questions that LOLLIPOPS answers and
more, so if LID!Snape is true, LOLLIPOPS seems a bit redundant. If
Snape changed sides because of the Life Debt, then we don't need
LOLLIPOPS to explain it. But you can still keep LOLLIPOPS around just
to make Snape suffer more guilt and jealousy, if this is how you get
you kicks <g>. Personally I get my kicks from elegant solutions, so
I'd prefer to drop LOLLIPOPS if it isn't needed.

An additional consideration is that both LOLLIPOPS and LID don't
explain Snape taking the UV, so you need an additional explanation for
that. ACID POPS does supply such an explanation, and it works well
with LID, but does it work well with LOLLIPOPS? Well, in principle our
Severus could be polluted by the love of *both* Lily and Narcissa, but
personally this is a bit too much sugar for me. So if you go for a
LID+LOLLIPOPS combination you also need to find some way to explain
the UV.

> Alla:
> Because as I said in the past, yes, unfortunately I believe that 
> LOLLIPOPS in one form or another **are** coming.
> 
> As somebody else wrote ( don't remember who. Magpie?)  I find the 
> silence from Snape on the subject of Lily to be more and more 
> deafening.
>

Neri:
I always find that kind of argument strange. If Snape *had* said
anything about Lily the LOLLIPOPS crew would have been ecstatic about
it, but since he never mentions her you find his *silence* suggestive.
So it looks like you have arranged it to get support for LOLLIPOPS
whatever JKR choose to write. This is a good example why I'm
suspicious of LOLLIPOPS. It's a ship that seems to be built on the
wishes of her crew regardless of canon.

> Alla: 
> I have no problem buying that Snape hates Harry, so since he had no 
> problem hurting him over and over again with calling James' 
> names,why wouldn't he do it the same with Lily?
> 

Neri:
I guess he would, so if you use LID to explain why Snape changed sides
and why he keep trying saving Harry, then there's no principal problem
in keeping LOLLIPOPS too. It even makes some kind of, ahem, twisted
sense. I'm still not sure I'd like to keep LOLLIPOPS just to hurt
Snape, but maybe I've just been spoiled by all those DDM+LOLLIPOPS
theorists who decided that loving Lily must make Snape this absurdly
noble person. There's still the question of the UV, though. Can you
actually stand LOLLIPOPS and ACID POPS together, or do you have
another explanation for the UV?

Neri